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Author Topic: Gathering Intel: Open War  (Read 5007 times)

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Offline Saberlain

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Gathering Intel: Open War
« on: 08/02/13, 10:29:33 PM »
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So, this has been a thought of mine for a little while. The setting in which we play this game is that of a Cold War, which soon escalates into a full blown Galactic War. So far, the majority of Begeren Colony Roleplays in the Era of the Cold War. Now, I have no intent to try and force people to play the game in one specific time period, but I'm wondering if it's about time that we start attempting to push things more towards the idea of open war, where upholding the Treaty no longer is a concern.

Now, before the arguments are made yet again, I am fully aware of the stance of many people when it comes to fighting in social areas. I have no intent to try and be rid of the 'Sacred Ground' idea. I understand that people will still want a chance to drink and socialize without getting murdered because of the Jedi and the Sith. I am fully aware that people will want the Barge to remain a 'safe-zone', so I'm not looking to argue the validity of those institutions.

However, I would like to know something. How many people oppose/agree with the idea of edging our RP situations to boil over into the full-blown war? I'm wondering this because for the entire time I've been RPing on this server, I've seen more conflicts between Sith and Sith, or Jedi and internal threats, than I have Jedi vs Sith or Republic vs Empire. I'm not saying these are bad things, I'm just wondering if we are getting to the point where we are stalling, putting of the war because we think it's more convenient to RP the Cold War.

Personally, I think it's about time that things got more serious. Time that we started forcing characters to choose sides. Time that we start to draw lines in the sand. Time for more open conflicts between the two factions. I feel that the community can handle it, even if it means more Player vs Player RP. I may be wrong, I understand this, but I really think it's time that we make the galaxy the dangerous place it's meant to be.

To be honest, I think that something like this would strengthen both the Empire and Republic RP groups. Notably, I feel that if the Republic had an enemy, we may see more Jedi and Trooper RP. Now, that's of course just my thought, I'd like to hear yours.

So this is what this thread is for, not to try and convince people to go 'Lol let's start the war' but to gather information and opinions on the idea. And, if the consensus is that we are in the position to start doing this, figuring out how we can steadily, and safely, push our RP as a community into the Open War.

Offline Iaera

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Re: Gathering Intel: Open War
« Reply #1 on: 08/02/13, 10:34:17 PM »
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I agree. But I think, by and large, this community has already been moving steadily along this path, and at just about the right pace to boot.

So, while I do think we should all think about the impending war and its ramifications for RP, and have discussions that need to be discussed, I'm mostly quite content to just let our community RP evolve naturally. The war has been brewing hotter and hotter pretty steadily. I think we're on target.
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DefunctGlasses

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Re: Gathering Intel: Open War
« Reply #2 on: 08/02/13, 10:42:29 PM »
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An interesting idea. Perhaps guilds from both sides could throw the idea onto the forums and prepare battle meets on planets where the Empire and Republic run their missions (i.e. Tatooine)?

Offline Jasonn

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Re: Gathering Intel: Open War
« Reply #3 on: 08/02/13, 10:46:14 PM »
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I'll just add two words on what I think: Hell Yes


Offline Joshmaul

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Re: Gathering Intel: Open War
« Reply #4 on: 08/02/13, 10:50:56 PM »
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Given the blow-ups I've seen over timeline discrepancies - Cold War vs. following the game timeline - I'm hesitant. I mean, we make the big whoopdeedoo about being in the Cold War for cross-faction RP purposes (though some of a less approving bent claim it's for ERP purposes), and then all of a sudden we start the war?
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Offline Saberlain

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Re: Gathering Intel: Open War
« Reply #5 on: 08/02/13, 10:55:13 PM »
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Given the blow-ups I've seen over timeline discrepancies - Cold War vs. following the game timeline - I'm hesitant. I mean, we make the big whoopdeedoo about being in the Cold War for cross-faction RP purposes (though some of a less approving bent claim it's for ERP purposes), and then all of a sudden we start the war?
Well, here is my general idea of it. I'm not saying we start the war with the snap of a finger, I'm just suggesting we start edging towards it, letting it snowball until we all can safely assume the war has started. Here's the way I'm seeing it, the Empire community is gearing up, preparing for hostilities. People are calling in allies and readying themselves for ensuing violence. Meanwhile, Republic RP is on the rise, not rapidly, but the Republic community is growing from what I have seen. Thus, starting to send the server hurtling towards the War makes sense. Now, again, I'm not saying we go 'Alright, War's started, Go.', I'm just saying that we start nudging it in that direction and discussion how things will need to be handled OOCly.

Offline livia

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Re: Gathering Intel: Open War
« Reply #6 on: 08/02/13, 11:19:04 PM »
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I think open war would be tedious and tiresome in the extreme. I have no interest in substantially increasing tension and building towards it, and I have no interest in playing in a state of open war. I think it would make things difficult and unpleasant for anyone who isn't really interested in direct conflict with people of the opposite faction. Why would we as a community want to drive those people away? (I am including myself in with the people who would probably be driven away by this.)

Offline Seraphie

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Re: Gathering Intel: Open War
« Reply #7 on: 08/02/13, 11:27:47 PM »
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Since it's a thread for simply gathering an idea of who's for or against this, I'll put in my two cents worth. I'm not the least bit interested in playing open war. Anaris and I wouldn't pull out of the community if that's where the community went, but we might pull back some, stick to smaller stuff, not within the open war setting.

Offline recoveringgeek

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Re: Gathering Intel: Open War
« Reply #8 on: 08/03/13, 01:08:02 AM »
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Honest question Saberlain,

For those players who's characters are protected by Plot-Armor, yet want to participate in escalation storylines, how would the community handle the inevitable Player vs. Player scene, and then both characters show up at Kwenn night for drinks?
I knew some of the Palace history, but not the bit about Jaade crashing that barge. That's good lore, right there.  :grin:

Offline Alumar

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Re: Gathering Intel: Open War
« Reply #9 on: 08/03/13, 01:47:06 AM »
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Going to add my concerns to those expressing a distaste for open war.

The problems I have seen in roleplay communities in the past- when the climate escalated from cold war type scenarios to open war is- it splits the community down faction lines and makes peaceable social role-play near impossible outside of your faction.

This would force the growing underworld community to choose sides, not immediately, but inevitably, because of the standard "If you're not with us you're against us" mentality wartime tends to bring up in the minds of active combatants.

It would kill the many beautiful layers of greys that are surfacing as we speak in our little IC world.
Alternately, it could split the server into THREE factions of people that can't peacefully roleplay together realistically ICly, making all cross faction roleplay dependent on OOC coordinated events. Which, would kinda suck.

War polarizes. Cold war allows for much more complexity.

I remember watching my former galaxies community go the opposite direction, even. They transitioned from open war to cold war, to facilitate better community unity and more roleplay overall, despite the game timeline. I can absolutely attest to the positive difference the cold war ambiguity made in allowing for more roleplay for all. Especially in a community of this size, with a (while growing) arguably still very sparse and un-organized republic end of things, and a bursting underworld faction growing.

I personally would OOCly prefer to avoid open war at all cost.
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Offline Cordae

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Re: Gathering Intel: Open War
« Reply #10 on: 08/03/13, 02:24:05 AM »
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 Recognizing that this thread is, at its core, a test balloon, here's my stance:

1. Though we here at BC.org represent a substantial portion of the Begeren Colony server RP community, we do not represent a majority of the Begeren Colony server RP community. I'm of the opinion that existing in our own canon - which, at this point in the game, is very much non-canon - would be a great way to get us all dismissed by and large by the rest of the community that RPs according to the present SWTOR canon as handed down by the game writers and developers.

2. Reiterating what I said before because it's such a strong point of contention for me, RPing the Galactic War scenario is not canon.

I can't help but think that most of the players who do not RP in SWTOR look down on - or are at the very least ambivalent of - those who do. It also seems to me that the devs don't really have 'RP wishes' anywhere near the top of their 'List of Things We Need to Do to Keep Subscriptions'. The fact of the matter is that for the most part, we'll play this game whether they give us sittable chairs or toggle-able hoods or not.

To actively disregard established canon (which I do, of course, recognize is murky at best given the conclusion of many of the class storylines), I think, would give everyone yet another reason to see RPers and think "Well, to hell with them anyway. They live in their own little make-believe world."

3. RPing the Hot War completely disregards any illusions of what I call the 'simultaneity of RP' - which is simply 'we are doing this, but others have the choice of not doing it'.

I think RPing the Hot War will make it harder to include new people. If we have our own overarching player-created (which is what a Hot War scenario would essentially be) framework, that would obviously shift major RP themes and missions toward a Hot War setting instead of the predominant Cold War setting. This being the case, new players who join our community AFTER that shift would either have to go along with our new framework or, for be effectively removed from the larger aspects of community RP.

That said, I'm not forgetting the fact that there would be RP that would NOT be based on the war. Naturally. Smugglers do smuggle-y things that may or may not have anything to do with the political situation. However, it stands to reason that such a major shift WOULD result in SOME shooting-war-esque RP missions and plot arcs. These new players who disagree with the direction we as a single community have taken would most likely have to sit it out. After all, what else could they do? Could they bend their character's story to fit into the non-canon community-centric shift we just made? They certainly could, but I firmly believe that they shouldn't, especially not when you consider my previous two objections not to mention the concerns I have relating to authorial integrity.

4. Would such a move bolster the growth of Trooper RP? Potentially. If you assume that the troopers we are already having problems finding would be willing to RP in a hot war setting that goes against the canon, as I have said, than sure.

...but you can sense from my tone that I have apprehensions. For me, I find myself consistently returning to the canon issue. Who loves canon fights? Star Wars nerds love canon fights. We can't deny that.
____

Just for the sake of conjecture - and for the curious - shifting to a hot war would drastically impact Erini's role in the universe.

As of right now, Erini has not been convinced to give up their isolationist ways. As a result, they would remain neutral and would be willing to use their political and military power to strongly insist upon that neutrality. Naturally, that would make Cordae and Vyla's jobs much more difficult, not to mention the strain such a move could potentially put on Cordae's personal life.

A Galactic War would have the potential to affect Allied Marches/Eresari relations, not to mention Allied Marches/Kyn relations. Indeed, because the Kyn are on their way to recognizing the Jedi as an order opposed to the Dark Side, as they are, they would lobby heavily for Erini to come in support of the Galactic Republic. Since I'm almost certain that they would not do this, at least not immediately and not without HEAVY diplomatic and political cause, the Kyn would almost certainly allow any of their men who could secure passage off-world to fight for the Republic as mercenaries. The Sh'aas - Erini's DS Force-culture - would largely remain uninvolved due to their physical isolation from technology and the involved parties. Any attempt from outside agents to bring the Sh'aas into the War would be seen by the Allied Marches as meddling in Erini's affairs (Sh'aas territory is recognized as existing on the Allied Marches' northwest border). Any agents caught doing so would be seen as enemies of the state and blocked from accessing the planet by the Royal Navy's orbital picket.

The effects of a Hot War are numerous, as anyone could guess, so these are only my preliminary thoughts.


Thank you, Saberlain, for the thought-provoking topic!
« Last Edit: 08/03/13, 02:27:05 AM by Cordae »



Offline Semah

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Re: Gathering Intel: Open War
« Reply #11 on: 08/03/13, 08:00:49 AM »
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Actually, I'd wager that most of the server (outside the BC.org community) views total-war as canonical. This has led to some recent and vigorous debates on the topic. Playing cold-war gets us looked down on far more, especially by people coming to us from guild RP. And, honestly, when it comes to looking down on people's RP, other RPers are the biggest problem. We're vicious.

But back on topic: I don't like total-war because I'm a sucker for cross-faction RP. And I'm with Joshmaul in saying that the ERP allegations are a ridiculous throbbing strawmanhood.

Kiive

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Re: Gathering Intel: Open War
« Reply #12 on: 08/03/13, 10:20:15 AM »
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Alright, this may turn into rambling, so I do apologize in advance if it heads that way.

My argument for maintaining a Cold War remains unchanged: Throughout the story, from the Flashpoint Esseles and Black Talon to the earlier worlds like Taris and Balmorra, the Empire and Republic are, in fact, waging war. It's not open, and all of them are deniable operations. During a stint on Balmorra on the Imperial Side, a former Republic general explicitly asks, with your character in attendance, a squad of Republic soldiers if they are acting on behalf of the Republic. Cue various "No" answers and their variations before attacking.

The Republic and the Empire are continually attacking each other, even after the treaty is signed, but every time a confidential operation is made public, they vehemently declare them a rogue element, and insist they will deal with it as swiftly as possible. This Cold War isn't just about stockpiling weapons and running Intelligence. It's about doing what you can to hurt the enemy as much as possible without the other side publically knowing.

That said, potential roleplay for troopers is vast and wide. We don't need just the other faction to fight something. Most of it is just setting up the scenarios and getting attendance up, which is happening slowly but steadily. Open war would change the dynamic and possible choke out what is already there.

If you left the cold war (And I'm not saying DON'T), an ENTIRE facet of RP would be destroyed, while smaller, more generalized versions would take their place. The line down the faction would be set, and cross-faction RP would be nonexistent, except on the field of battle. Sith and Jedi going to the Dancer's Retreat wouldn't happen, because you have characters like Curil and Rivoso who would take advantage of so many High Value enemies in one place and just send in a sniper team to deal with them.

While I enjoy the idea of eventually entering the war, I'm compelled to agree with Alumar. The Cold War really does hold all the elements of war while maintaining the intrigue of a world where enemies can very safely have a pleasant chat with you on the way to a drink. The fact of the matter is, and why I was a bit zealous in emphasizing the the new trooper unit was a black ops unit, the war is very much still raging, just out of the eyes of the public.

Cross faction RP would be effectively destroyed to strengthen individual faction RP.

Offline Saberlain

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Re: Gathering Intel: Open War
« Reply #13 on: 08/03/13, 11:23:20 AM »
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Seeing as this is mainly an information gathering probe of a thread, I am refraining from arguing my points here. I simply wish to determine the community's stance in general.

However, there is a theme I'd like to address that has been reappearing in various concerns here:

Honest question Saberlain,

For those players who's characters are protected by Plot-Armor, yet want to participate in escalation storylines, how would the community handle the inevitable Player vs. Player scene, and then both characters show up at Kwenn night for drinks?
Sith and Jedi going to the Dancer's Retreat wouldn't happen, because you have characters like Curil and Rivoso who would take advantage of so many High Value enemies in one place and just send in a sniper team to deal with them.

Specifically I want to get to the 'Sith and Jedi going to the Dancer's Retreat wouldn't happen' bit. If you really want to be technical and realistic, that already shouldn't be happening. At the time of the Cold War, a good majority of the Jedi would be training or teaching or like-wise preparing, save for the small number enlisted to black ops. Sith would mostly only be consolidating power bases or sewing seeds of conflict in high-value areas. Neither of these two groups would realistically go to a Barge on Nar Shaddaa just to have a drink. Alcohol is pretty common through-out the universe, and in a time where there are two superpowers staring each other down the barrel, you aren't going to want to go hang out with the other side.

However, this does not appear to be how our Roleplay works. We all seem to want our characters to be social with other players, and only hostile to NPC baddies. (Note, this is a generalization, I'm not saying this is how everyone acts.) We don't really Roleplay realistically in this Cold War Scenario. Am I saying this is a bad thing? No, I just feel that if we never change anything, it will always just be a stagnant, more-of-the-same universe for us to play in.

That said, I would still like to hear more opinions from the community. After a while, I may summarize the main points that appear and post them so we all know where we stand.

Offline Wymarc

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Re: Gathering Intel: Open War
« Reply #14 on: 08/03/13, 11:30:28 AM »
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Specifically I want to get to the 'Sith and Jedi going to the Dancer's Retreat wouldn't happen' bit. If you really want to be technical and realistic, that already shouldn't be happening. At the time of the Cold War, a good majority of the Jedi would be training or teaching or like-wise preparing, save for the small number enlisted to black ops. Sith would mostly only be consolidating power bases or sewing seeds of conflict in high-value areas. Neither of these two groups would realistically go to a Barge on Nar Shaddaa just to have a drink. Alcohol is pretty common through-out the universe, and in a time where there are two superpowers staring each other down the barrel, you aren't going to want to go hang out with the other side.

Information gathering, protecting supply lines, gathering allies in the underworld, refueling.....
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