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Author Topic: If I was a PvP Dev….  (Read 1090 times)

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Offline Sirienn'ti

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If I was a PvP Dev….
« on: 08/17/15, 07:28:57 PM »
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Overall PvP Changes
- Arenas have been removed from the game
- Level 60 Warzones no longer have bolster
- Reduce the amount of resolve received by all stuns by 70%
- Roots now add to the resolve bar
- Full resolve now lasts till death
- Trauma Abilities that deal -20% healing now lasts 45s. In addition, the debuff now reduces healing dealt instead of healing received.
- 8v8 Ranked Season 1 begins
- Warzone Ques have been revamped
   • Cross Faction and Server now applies to warzone Ques
   • There is now a separate solo and group que for regular warzones
   • Warzone Que HUD has been changed, and now shows all warzones currently being hosted on your server to show you what warzone you'd join in.
   • Warzone teams can now no longer consist of more then 2 tanks and 2 healers. In addition, there can now no longer be more then 2 of the same advanced classes in an ops group. (I.E no more then two Sages, regardless of spec.)


Class Changes

Sith Sorcerer/Jedi Sage

- Base Class Changes
    • Reduces the healing dealt across all abilities by 15%
    • Increased the duration of Forcequake and Force Storm by 3s (now a 6s channel) and its damage has been increases by 2.5%
    • Force Mobility has been removed from the game
    • Backlash/Kinetic Collapse can now only occur once every 30 seconds.

- Madness/Balance Changes
    • Reduced the damage of all Balance/Madness abilities by 20% including base dots.
    • Death Field/Force In Balance has had its force cost reduced to 40. (Down from 50)


Sith Assassin/Jedi Shadow

- Base Class Changes
    • Force Shroud/Resilience now has a 1 minute cool down.
    • Phase Walk is now an instant cast. (Down from 0.5 sec)
    • Maul/Shadow Strike has had its Force cost reduced by 10, and is now trained at level 10.
    • Discharge/Force Breach are now trained at level 10.

- Hatred/Serenity Changes
    • Total Damage across all abilities has been reduced by 15%.
    • Total healing across all abilities has been reduced by 10%
    • Death Field/Force In Balance now cost 40 Force. (Down from 50) In addition, they now spread Hatred/Serenity dots.

- Deception/Infiltration Changes
    • The damage dealt by Voltaic Slash/Clairvoyant Strike has been increased by 10%.
    • Recklessness/Force Potency now correctly grant a hard critical hit with Discharge/Force Breach.

- Darkness/Kenetic Combat Changes
    • Depredating Volts/Cascading Debris can no longer be channeled on the move.
    • The base charges of Dark Ward/Kenetic Ward has been increased to 18. (21 with armor set bonus)


Mercenary/Commando Changes

- Base Class Changes
    • Thrill of the Hunt/Forced March have been removed from the game.
    • Hydraulic Override/Hold the Line now has a 1 minute cool down.
     • Kolto Overload/Adrenaline Rush instantly heal you back to 50% health then slowly heal back to 75% of your health, but will not exceed 75%.

- Innovated Ordinance/Assault Specialist Changes
    • Superheated Gas/Superheated Plasma is now the following: Increases the damage dealt by Combustible Gas Cylinder by 20% and its chance to trigger by 15%. In addition, burns will heal for 3% health every 2.5 seconds.
• Speed to Burn/Blazing Celerity now make Serrated Shot/Bolt critically hilt.
• The damage of Serrated Shot/Bolt has been decreased by 5%.

- Arsenal/Gunnery Changes
    • Ligh 'Em Up/Gravity Surge now additionally increase defense chance by 50% when Heatseeker Missile/Demolition Round hit a target. This can not occur more then once every 30 seconds.


- Powertech/Vanguard Changes

- Base Class Changes
    • Hydraulic Override/Hold the Line now has a 1 minute cool down.
    • Rocket Launcher has an additional 2 rockets loaded. (Up from 4) however, the damage has been reduced by 10%.
    • Kolto Overload/Adrenaline Rush instantly heal you back to 50% health then slowly heal back to 75% of your health, but will not exceed 75%.

- Shield Specialist/Shield Tech Changes
    • Oil Slick/Riot Gas now only slows targets down by 50% (down from 70%). In addition, its cool down has been decreased to 45s (down from 1 minute.).

- Pyrotech/Plasmatech Changes
    • Overall damage of the disciplines abilities has been increases by 5%.
    • Heated Tools now additionally has a 25% chance to heal you for 5% of the your total health. This affect can only activate once every 20 seconds.

- Advanced Prototype/Tactics Changes
    • Gut/Retractable Blade no longer deal kinetic damage. Its bleed damage has been increased by 5%.
     • Thermal Detonator/Assault Plastique has had its damage reduced by 10%. In addition, its range has been decreased to 10m (down from 30m).
    • Sonic Defense now lasts 10 seconds. (Up from 6.) but increases defense chance by 20%. (Down from 30%).


Sith Juggernaut/Jedi Guardian Changes

- Base Class Changes
    • Vicious Throw/Dispatch are now trained at level 36.
    • Unstoppable/Unremitting now only has a 50% chance to trigger.
    • Enraged Defense/Focus Defense now only heals up to 75% health and can not exceed passed 75%.

- Vigilance/Vengeance Changes
    • Brawn/Robust and Eviscerate/Burning Purpose have switched passive spots on the discipline path and only has a 50% chance to trigger.
    • Shien Form is now trained at level 10, Shatter/Plasma Brand at level 26, and Impale/Overhead Slash at level 41 with in the discipline tree.


Sith Marauder/Jedi Sentinel Changes

- Base Class Changes
    • Vicious Throw/Dispatch is now trained at 36.
    • Dual Saber Throw/Twin Saber Throw is now trained at level 42 and grants two focus.
    • Brooding is now a base class passive
    • The Expunging Camouflage passive now cleanses dots as intended

- Annihilation/Watchmen Changes
    • Deadly Saber/Overload Saber has had its damage increases by 5%

- Carnage/Combat Changes
    • Force Vigor/Force Health now cause Dual Saber Throw/Twin Saber Throw to build a total of 4 Focus.
    • Frenzied Saber/Saber Screen now increase Melee, Ranged, Force and Tech defense chance by 3% and stacks 4 times for 12 seconds.


Sniper/Gunslinger Changes

- Base Class Changes
    • Covered Escape/Hightail It is now trained at level 36.
    • Energy has been increases to 125. (Up from 110)
    • Ballistic Dampers has been redesigned: Entering Cover grants 10 charges of Ballistic Dampers. Each stack absorbs 20% of incoming damage. (Down from 30%). This affect can only occur once every 1.5 seconds. In addition, Ballistic Dampers has a 45% chance to heal you for 5% of your total health when it absorbs damage. Charges persist through leaving cover. This affect will trigger every time you go into cover if you are out of charges.
    • Damage has been decreased across all Sniper/Gunslinger abilities by 5%.

- Marksmanship/Sharpshooter Changes
    • Penetrating Blast/Rounds has had its damage decreased by 10% and its cool down decreased by 3 seconds. (Down from 15.)

- Dirty Fighting/Virulence Changes
    • Cull/Wounding Shots damage is increased by 2.5% and additionally deals an extra 2% tech damage if dots are applied to the target.
    • Hemorrhaging Blast/Weakening Blast now lost till the target is defeated.


Operative/Scoundrel Changes

- Base Class Changes
    • All Healing abilities have had there healing reduced by 10%
    • Exfiltrate/Scamper are now trained at level 36. In addition they cost 20 energy for the first roll, free for the second if used with in the next 10 seconds. Then this ability goes on a 15 second cool down. (Up from 10)
    • Diagnostic Scan can not be used while moving.

- Concealment/Scrapper Changes
    • Collateral Strike/Flying fist passive has been removed, and is now added to the Lacerate/Sucker Punch ability.
    • New passive to replace Collateral Strike/Flying Fists: Infiltration Training/Underworld Connections: Increases armor penetration by 5%, armor rating by 5% and total endurance by 5%

- Ruffian/Lethality Changes
    • Lethal Proliferation/Black Market Mods now spreads your dots with Shrap Bomb/Corrosive Grenade instead of Carbon Burst/Blaster Volley.


New Warzone

Yavin 4 Conquest:

- Two teams of 8 begin at opposite ends of map at a command post.
- 4 other command posts are up for conquering. Remain within 10m of them to slowly bring it to your factions control, the more guarding it the faster it will go. It will not go to one faction or another if enemies are within 10m.
- On death you choose what command post you respawn at, if any are controlled by your team.
- first team to conquer all command posts till time runs out wins.


What are peoples thoughts/opinions?
« Last Edit: 08/17/15, 11:47:16 PM by Sirienn'ti »

Offline Zuhara

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Re: If I was a PvP Devů.
« Reply #1 on: 08/29/15, 09:47:44 AM »
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1) Arenas were introduced into the game because the amount of support required to maintain 8v8s did not exist. Only a handful of teams even existed across the entire game before 8s were removed, along with every single match of ranked play being a "turtle fest" when the competition was even aside from ranked Huttball.

Bringing back 8s and removing 4s would be a terrible idea, population of PvP does not support it. I always related the two as comparisons to PvE: 4v4s should be like HM ops while 8v8s should be NiM. Having both in the game creates more room for skill and improvement, as no one knew how to DPS or kill enemy players like they learned in 4v4s.

2) Bolster reduces the requirement of gear in order to perform well. Removing it only gives people the ability to make excuses, blaming it over their skill and effectively ruining the personal development into possible competitors.

3) Depending on the availability of cross server groups, unranked separation of queue could cause problems in balancing teams together. Often the queue puts together a team of four, a team of two, and then backfills the rest with solo queuers. To restrict them to groups only may cause problems in filling a full team, and cross server may not fix the problem depending on how available groups are in the queue. Aside of the problem that would occur from placing a team of three together with a team of four, making the opponents down one player regardless of syncing.

Also, Trauma changes make the debuff too linear and predictable. I think a 45 second debuff is a good idea, but the healing received makes the application of the debuff require skill than just being able to mindlessly debuff a healer and any potential offhealing DPS.

4) Reducing heals across baseline Sorcs would be unfair to healer spec, which the only heals that are OP are offheal DPSers. Force Quake was also nerfed because the channel was too long and damaging, the change should be in an increase to the shortened length's damage if any is at all. However, considering Sorcs ability with DPS and AOE capabilities already, this ability should be left alone since their damage in AOE is already too significant in both Lightning and Madness.

5) Removing Force Mobility is silly, as this utility is far from the problem of Sorc. They are designed to be able to kite opponents effectively, where they still have a weakness in being unable to outpace certain melee DPS. Removing more mobility is not the answer to fixing their ease of survival as the utility was not a problem until the recent buff to heals: their offheals need to be reduced slightly in order to make the  class take skill to play again.

6) Backlash also falls into the same category above. The specs were both a little too weak, where the devs answer to buffing them was giving them offheals that were too powerful. Reducing the offheal capabilities of DPS specs by a small margin would balance the specs out.

7) Damage changes are not needed for Madness, as the spec is still behind Hatred Sin capabilities as well as being on par with most top performing specs already. Self heals are the only problematic issue for them, where they have enough capability to survive damage without support roles better than everyone minus the Sins.

8) Hatred Sin changes here are very ineffective. Self healing was previously an issue of them, but with the patch preceding this one, those self heals were nuked to oblivion. Reducing them even further is illogical, as they are already run into the ground. Secondly, damage nerf is not needed as the new change created room for chance in the spec by making the class more melee specific. Having dotspread on Death Field makes the spec too simple and linear, where damage is high regardless of skill because the spread can only be countered on one CD of Death Field.

The change to having the damage spread on Lacerate/Whirling Blow is perfect, as this makes the spec capable of performing even higher damage than before but at the same time, forcing the spec to be melee specific. If players are not careful/skilled in their positioning, a Hatred Sin is easily going to destroy the entire team single handedly with damage.

The new changes made the spec require skill, dumbing it down again would only return the game to when teams of ranked PvP would consist entirely of Hatred Sins.

9) Deception damage could use a buff, but with the current abilities that can be used to survive in that spec, there has to be some sacrifice to defensive capabilities if it receives one. The spec currently represents balance in burst damage: it has the weakest damage potential overall, but is versatile in damage types and has the best defensive capabilities of any burst specs. Increasing damage means that there needs to be a nerf in its strong point.

10) Removing channel Depredating Volts reduces the ability of a tank sin to counter kiting DPS, which is not needed as the balance of "kiting" is currently fine. Changes to the Dark Ward are also unnecessary, as the issue with Sin tank survivability is not in the attacks they can shield.

11) The Merc changes overall sound as if you're turning them into Snipers with strong offheals and CDs. This is very wrong, especially in the case of IO merc that currently has one of the top parsing damage capabilities in the entire game. Giving IO Merc more damage and making them able to survive easily essentially breaks the game for them, as no spec will be able to compete with their combined sustained and burst damage capabilities.

In addition, the defense chance increase to Arsenal is also ridiculous, as they basically will be able to dodge almost every white damage attack in game. It may not seem like it on paper, but 50% defense chance is beyond overpowered, as most melee damage dealers that have one as a CD can only use it every 2 mins for a reason. It isn't as simple as dodging 50% of attacks thrown your way: it's a 50% chance to dodge every single attack that registers. With decent RNG, you could dodge an entire enemy rotation with those numbers.

The Chaff flare that gives 35% defense/charges of damage absorbed for Arsenal when active for a short time is a step in the right direction, but Mercs don't need damage buffs. They need better counters to stuns, which are capable of making those classes OP as well. Give them a little more capability to get breathing room, and the specs are fine.

I'll comment on the rest of these later, as the list is rather long ^^;
« Last Edit: 08/29/15, 09:54:21 AM by Zuhara »


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Offline Imazi

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Re: If I was a PvP Devů.
« Reply #2 on: 08/29/15, 11:22:40 AM »
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I don't PvP but this is something that has been bugging me with the latest rounds of nerfs. When it comes to sage/sorc nerfs I almost only hear people complain about sorcs being OP but in the end both classes end up getting nerfed. What is it? Do people play sorcs more and that's why others don't complain as much about sages as Sorcs. Or do Sorcs have slightly different mechanics though being a mirror class?

The only reason I care is because the PvP balance just makes PvE as a sage a pain. Our damage is nerfed, our healing was lower at one point, we can't really tank with Forcequake being nerfed... Nerfs end up being rather painful when you aren't really allowed to do much of anything enough. I do conceed that I like the recent healing buffs though. It helps if I can at least keep myself alive even if I have to rely on comps to get stuff done.
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Offline Sebrik

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Re: If I was a PvP Devů.
« Reply #3 on: 01/09/17, 06:37:32 PM »
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Class balance in this game is something that is probably never going to happen ever, in its current state.  One of the absolute core problems in this game is class balance. 

In our current state, 5.0, Bioware treats each class like all PvP are 1v1s.  With every whiner on the forums about this class not being able to hold its own against that class, Bioware nerfs and buffs according to them.  We no longer have classes like ranged/support DPS.  A class like Mercenary for example, is a ranged DPS class.  Originally, it had good damage and some off-heals, which essentially made that class a support DPS class.

When you play a support DPS class, you would expect yourself to play a little out of the action, behind your team.  You are best when unnoticed, due to the good DPS you can throw out, but weak defensive cooldowns.  You have roots and slows and a knockback.  These are distance creators.  They create distance between you and the enemy, so you can kite them.

However, if a Mara was able to close that distance and get up in your face, the advantage should now be the Mara's.  The melee DPS class.  It is only common sense that a melee DPS class would do better in melee, in your face, than a ranged/support DPS class.


In our current state however, 5.0, this is not the case.  And this is just one example.  This isn't a "Mercs are OP" post, but a "class balance and PvP at its core is broken".  I believe one of the biggest problems with this is the player base.  Everyone seems to expect every class to be viable in 1v1s.  Everyone wants this class to be able to defend against that class, etc etc.  Not a lot of people seem to understand that PvP was originally intended to be like many other games, with counters and counter-counters.  Not every class will be the most viable option in every situation. 


What I Would Change

First of all, I will post what I have been saying for years but never really spread it out in a post. 

Expertise should make a comeback.  But no longer tied to gear, and instead, tied to class disciplines.  One of the biggest challenges with a PvP and PVE aspect is creating balance for both without ruining either side.  It's rare that it can be done.  You fix one thing for the PvP side, and now the PVE side is broken.

My idea was to create a mirror of each discipline right now.  That wouldn't be hard.  The assets are already there.  We'll use Operative as example.

Operatives can choose from Lethality, Medicine, and Concealment.  Lets say we choose Concealment.  At the top of the utility screen, where it says "Concealment" there would be a little toggle, or a drop down menu with two options.

PVE or PVP.

To begin with, each discipline would probably be the exact same with no changes yet.  This is almost zero work for the devs so far.  We have just implemented a PVE or PVP toggle for all discplines, which was just a simple copy/paste job.  Now, throughout the following weeks and months, we begin to tweak abilities here and there.  Stripping abilities all together, nerfing or buffing certain ones, etc etc.

Suddenly the PVP Concealment and the PVE Concealment pages look quite different.  Suddenly, PVP balance looks a little more feasible as we now no longer have to worry about ruining something on the PVE side.

"But Seb, what forces players to actually use the PVP trees when they could just choose the probably broken PVE ones?"

This is where Expertise comes in.   Toggling or choosing the PVP tree automatically grants the Expertise stance.  On top of the bolster, this adds an additional 1k Expertise to your stats.  If any of you PvPed in 4.0, you would know that playing with 1k less Expertise than anyone else would make you very ineffective.   



Throughout the years of patches and updates, Bioware continues to add to the problem that is class-balance.  At the current state, no amount of minor buffing or nerfing will ever fix anything.  Only a complete rehaul, like my idea, would. 


Ideally, the PVP toggle wouldn't remove or add that many abilities that the PVE tree didn't have.  I'm sure that anyone serious about PvP wouldn't mind taking 30 seconds to switch an ability from one quickbar to another if it meant PvP that wasn't hilariously broken. 



What Else I Would Change

Going along with my previous idea, here are some of the changes I would make.

1. Support/ranged DPS classes like Mercs and Snipers would have fewer or slightly nerfed defensive CDs.  (Greatly nerfed in the current Merc case).  On the flip side, distance creators like knockbacks and roots/slows would be a priority for these classes.  Main abilities such as Unload or Tracer Missile for the Merc, or Ambush or Penetrating Shots for the Sniper, would not work within 5 meters.  This gives melee classes who can break through the roots, slows, and knockbacks the advantage.

This forces support classes to play at a distance as they should be.  If a melee DPS breaks through however, they are at a sore disadvantage.


2. Tanks do greatly reduced damage.  4.0 was a broken mess of skank tanks.  At one point, tank spec in DPS gear did MORE DPS than the other two DPS trees.  Obviously that's now how things were intended. 

I would nerf tank specs greatly in that your DPS is really no longer valid.  In return, tanks are granted stronger passive defensive CDs and granted more crowd control abilities, though not necessarily just more hard stuns. 

This forces tanks to play as intended, tanking and protecting your teammate(s).


3. Healers have drastically reduced defensive CDs.  In my time of PvPing in SWTOR, I have seen countless times, healers being focused and interrupted at the right times by two people, yet still live to heal themselves and their teammates.  I've always thought two DPS should easily burn through a healer, though the outrage that would cause would be extreme, noting the playerbase of this game.

I would be fine with two DPS effectively taking a healer out of the fight by forcing the healer to heal only himself if he were to stay alive.  Currently, you could be focused by two DPS, heal yourself, and still heal your teammates. 

I'm not sure I really even need to mention which defensive CDs would be greatly nerfed.  Obviously Mercs are up there with theirs, as are Sorcs.  Operative healers aren't too defensively OP, though I would nerf the defense chance on roll very slightly. 


4.  Operatives.  Other than Juggs, Operatives are still one of the most viable class for 1v1s.  I've mained an Operative since launch, and have been with it through all its ups and downs.  Immediately I would fix Evasion, so that it works through a stun.  Currently, Evade does not work through a stun.  Second, I would add the stun/knockdown effect back onto Backstab.  Not as an intended buff, but a nerf.  Backstab from stealth is one of our hardest hitting abilities and it is on a fairly low CD.  Adding the stun back to the ability would make things a little more tricky for us with Resolve.  Now, in using our main ability from stealth, we have hit the enemy hard but we have filled half their Resolve, and need to be careful with the rest of the fight.

So now there is a decent emphasis on entering a fight from stealth, which is obviously the intention.  We open up on an enemy, we've hit hard, and they're stunned for the 2 seconds.  But now we have to manage Resolve immediately, and not just "Stun-lock" our way to a victory in a 1v1.

We are definitely broken in 1v1s.  On paper, a Melee DPS Jugg should beat a Melee DPS Operative IF the Operative didn't take the advantage with opening up from stealth.  Strip away the stealth for a moment, and by nature, the Jugg should beat the Operative. 

Unfortunately that's not the case at the moment.  Instead of the main selling point of Operatives being our key to winning, it's more of just an.....extra addition to our arsenal.  Effectively, we could basically be a Jugg with stealth.  This shouldn't be the case.  Our emphasis should be on stealth, and opening from stealth - taking that first advantage.  After that, we should ideally be on a level playing field, or slightly underneath that field. 

Increase the cooldown on Kolto Infusion by a few seconds.  Currently the GCDs allow for a roll in, two-three attacks, roll away, Kolto Infuse, rinse, repeat.  In a matter of less than 10 GCDs, we have dodged two of your attacks (200% defense chance on roll), hit you, and then healed a decent amount. 

With an increase of the Kolto Infusion CD, this somewhat disrupts that.  I would keep Kolto Probes the same.  Roll needs to be evaluated.  Either a higher CD or less defense chance.  In my opinion, it is unfair that a DPS class such as Operatives can absorb two attacks every 10 seconds.


5.  Buff Mara DPS.  Fix Holotraverse and Shadow Stride (though that's more of a game engine problem that will likely never be fixed).  Remove the "in combat" effect that Juggs have on one of their AOE abilities.  They can spam this at the beginning of a 1v1 and immediately pull any stealth into combat, obviating their out of combat stuns. 

6.  Drastically buff Orbital Strike and its Republic side counterpart.  Snipers are as I mentioned above, a support ranged DPS class.  Orbital Strike used to be very powerful, but of course, very easy to escape.  You have what, 8 seconds to move away unless you want to take all three hits?  It is very, very easy to move out of the way of Orbital Strike.  So it confuses me as to why it was nerfed a few updates ago.  Snipers should be rewarded, not punished, for catching someone unawares in their Orbital Strike. 

7.  8v8s.  Unranked and lowbie/midbie WZs include 8v8s.  They have done since the beginning of time.  Why have these brackets play on PVP maps they won't ever play again in Ranked?  Isn't Unranked sort of a practice/casual bracket for Ranked?  It confuses me as to why you would be learning and mastering PvP maps that you won't ever see again if you get into Ranked at end game.

8v8 maps in Ranked encourages team playing, strategies, situational counters, etc.  Instead of mindless 4v4 deathmatches, you actually should have to think a little and become engaged in 8v8 maps. 


8.  And for kriff's sake, add a Huttball league.  Who's the best Huttball team on your server?  In my opinion Huttball is a great game that has essentially gone to waste.  It could be so much more with its own leaderboards and rankings.  Would it be dominated by a team of 8 Operatives roflrolling their way with the ball?  Would they be stopped by a team of ranged DPSers who can easily knock them back before they reach the end line?  Who knows?  I don't, but I want to see.



I've been typing for a while now and can't think of anything else I had on my mind.  I realize this is a long post and not everyone will read it, but if you have counters to anything I've suggested feel free to reply.  If I think of anything else I'll add it later.
« Last Edit: 01/09/17, 06:46:42 PM by Sebrik »