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Author Topic: Suggestions For Bridging Summit and Forums  (Read 2946 times)

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Offline Karmic

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Suggestions For Bridging Summit and Forums
« on: 11/17/15, 08:53:52 AM »
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I apologize now if this should have gone in "World/Community" Building forum.  I wasn't sure which it belonged in "more" so please feel free to move this if it needs to go down there.

This is entirely OOC and has to do with the Summit Meetings and this Forum so - I had the impression it went here; whereas more "IC" centric ideas go in the World/Community Building Forum :).

I've been wanting to start this suggestion/discussion for awhile but held off thinking perhaps I'm "one of the few" feeling this way.  But after the recent discussion prompted by the IC Senate/Council discussion thread I realize that no, I'm not the only one and that perhaps suggestions to improve this problem could be implemented.

One - this thread is NOT AT ALL about Bashing the Server Summits - the way they are held, conducted, etc.  I think this is a great thing we are trying to put together and coordinate between all the "groups" on the server (as in RP, PVE, PVP, etc...) so everyone gets more access to what they find fun on our server.  This thread is NOT AT ALL wanting to replace or cancel such meetings OR Change their purpose.  So please, if you want to do that - start your own thread  :).

Two - while this thread is for trying to help with suggestions and therefore there will be complaints (that the suggestions are meant to help) please keep them constructive and as positive as possible.  If all you want to do is /rant - make your own thread.  By the same token, if all you want to do is post a defense of why "this isn't a problem" - make your own thread.   This thread is here to solve issues. Not create them.

The fact that I'm making this thread says that YES actually there is a problem - so please don't dismiss the concerns posting here as irrelevant because you don't feel/experience them.  I already have several suggestions for helping the situation, so please - come with suggestions and ideas not slams and dismissals!

Overriding problem I've felt and am seeing:  Feeling left out of "decisions" being made by "other people", or important discussions - due to XYZ reasons of not being able to attend Summits regularly.

I put "decisions" and "other people" in quotes for a reason - because these are assumptions being made by those not able to attend.  They may very well be false ideas/assumptions - but because the person isn't able to attend, they have no way to correct the ideas. 

And it is the assumption that leads to bad feelings and negativity - there are several fancy psychology words for the type of Bias this is - the "Us vs. Them" only being one of them - but I don't care to go into all that.  Suffice it say - its normal, its human, and its TO BE EXPECTED in a situation like this where it is perceived that a "few" are gathering/discussing the concerns of "many" - and then "making decisions." 

I'm not here to pick apart the assumption.  You can't make people stop thinking that.  What we we CAN DO is put other things in place that address the issue, inform as much as possible the greatest number of people of what is actualy going on, so there's no assumption/bias to have to deal with - as much.  Yes, still outliers - but outliers are well... what they are.

Also - we've already had the incident, several times, where people have come to the forum (some new) and made the statement "this was discussed at the Summit and so we wanted to...." only for the rest of us to go, "Whazzit? What are we talking about? What was discussed? What was said at the discussion?"  Which has led to problems getting the point of the thread/post - instead of a discussion of the actual idea.

I want the Server Summits to be as active and influential in creating harmony on this server as they can possibly be - but that means making further effort to include those that feel excluded.  Include those who wish to be included, but for whatever IRL reason, can't make the summit.

In a former MMO life I played in a game that did something simliar to this.  It had in-game-server meetings between various guild representatives to spread IC and OOC information, keep track of plots, keep everyone on the same page,  handle issues, etc. etc.  It was very successful for awhile, until ripped apart by that same "Us vs. Them" mentality that people who couldn't attend the meetings fell into.  I hope we can prevent that from happening here; because it really was a misunderstanding of intent.  These suggestions come from that experience, and watching the simmerings of what tore it apart starting here.

~~~~(please note: caps are for emphasis - for the TLDR of the statement - not a sign of emotional typing)~~~

So how can we help the feeling that those unable to attend the meeting have no idea who/what's going on, discussed, what's decided, what's up for discussion for the next summit - etc.

FIRST SUGGESTION - and to me "easiest" to implement suggestion - HAVE A RECORD KEEPER/NOTE TAKER of MINUTES OF THE MEETING.

I don't mean someone has to write/type down every single word said in chat or over vent.  Having not been to a summit meeting yet (because IRL scheduling has not allowed me too), I don't know how organized the discussions are vs. chaos of just random people talking on ideas.  I know there's a loose agenda of some kind, only because its been mentioned here.

So if its a bit disorganized and people piping in with comments- then no there is no need for someone to write down every word of every discussion as that would just be exhaustive to keep track of and noone wants/needs to read through all that for the salient information.

BUT - a designated minutes/note taker person would be responsible for getting the SALIENT points.  For the less verbal, for getting the RELEVANT points of discussion - A summary of the various points made in the discussion of XYZ topic; the direction of the conversation/discussion - whether it was tabled for more information to be gathered and decided at a later meeting or if a decision was made, what decision was it? 

These notes need to be posted here, on the forums, within a reasonable time (like 7-10 days) after a Summit so that  if any of the issues need to be discussed HERE on the Forums because someone needs clarification; because its something that should be discussed among many before deciding; or maybe because those that make most of the Summits want to get a wider audience of feedback then they get at the meetings before they move forward with an idea.  This also allows those of us unable to attend the Summit to give definitive and topical feedback from our own fingers instead of hoping/relying on the 3-5 who can attend the summit from this community to represent what our opinion/feedback is. 

Those 3-5 cant, and won't, know the feelings of the rest of the community - so let the rest of the community have an opportunity to join the feedback.  And don't say "Then go to the meeting."  For some of us that really isn't much of a reliable option.  It doesn't mean we don't want to be active - it just means help us!

Now before I get people saying "you can't keep up" "there are no logs so we can't keep track."  I call BanthaPoodoo on you!  People have been doing exactly this for decades before VOIP was a reality.  I MYSELF did this BY TYPING HAND at the aforementioned meetings - there was no VOIP existing, there were no chat logs to post or even to use as a reference.  I typed, by hand, everything said by everyone (obviously in a word program) and then posted it up in an easy to follow format to the forums - every couple of months we had these meetings.

It can be done.  It only takes someone (or 2-3 someones for people who can't make every meeting) committing to doing this.

And quite frankly, if we can't find a way to do this - I'm not sure the "Summit" gatherings are ever going to do what they want to do because the longer these meetings happen and noone besides who shows up has any idea what's being discussed or decided - then moving forward you're going to get more and more resentment and dismissal from the larger section of the populace who can't make them.  Its noone's fault.  Its just human nature.  Please, let's prevent that from happening here. 

I think having a Minute Person would solve many of the issues of communication back and forth - and have it really feel like a "Community" summit where the most people possible are getting their feedback heard.

SUGGESTION TWO -

In addition to "Overall Minutes" (or perhaps instead of but again I highly encourage the first..) - if we had those people at the Summit who, upon hearing an issue or decision needing to be made - or suggestion being given - to bring the Exact Specific Issue/Discussion to the Forums for further discussion/feedback from everyone here - and then that SAME Person taking it back to the next Summit for further evolution/decision/whatever.

This again would mean volunteers from this forum community (the idea being they are more aware than those outside this  forum community of possible concerns/etc.) agreeing to, at that particular Summit (from whomever showed up..), to say "Hey - I can see this is a big issue. Let me open that up for discussion on the FOrums for everyone and bring that back next Summit to move on."

This, for example, could have been a better setup to solve the IC Senate/Council idea/discussion thread than just random person volunteering to give an explanation - when the rest of us responding don't know where they are coming from, what was discussed, what's going on, etc.  Having someone already familiar with posting on the forums, to present in a readable manner the important points of the concerns/ideas being raised and opening the floor from there.  It would also allow for whatever talk going on in the forums - for whatever good points are made pro/con - to be SUMMARIZED by the person going BACK to the next Summit for that meeting - in order to move forward.

(hope that made sense).
TLDR - if we don't want to put up summary notes - then please at the very least have people bringing the Summit Major Topics of Discussion/Decision  making starting a thread here - EXPLAINING what was discussed/brought up/concern of those at the Summit Meeting - and then opening it up for true public discussion.

Both of these suggestions allow for everyone that can attend the meetings AND everyone who visits these forums semi-regularly, to feel they have a voice and a way of influencing what's going on without feeling /excluded because they can't make an OOC meeting, or because they aren't wanting to be on the forums.

Any more suggestions that make the exchange of information more fluid and consistent?  Any more ideas for helping people - from as many situations as possible - stay up to date on what the Summit Meetings are about?    Any more ideas for helping a feeling of INCLUSION and not exclusion?


~~~
Quick note: I am using these forums for the other half of the format because I'm feeling that trying to do this on the overall game forums would not be half as productive.  It is not to say I don't think the meetings shoudln't be advertised on the main game forums - I think they should be.  As should this site as well.  But I worry if we take the "open discussion of points" to the main forums you'll get too many trolls/people who have no stake in any of it (i.e. aren't joining any of this at all...) giving their opinions and what they want to see happen and that becomes impossible to manage or even follow...

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Offline Cordae

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Re: Suggestions For Bridging Summit and Forums
« Reply #1 on: 11/17/15, 09:02:13 AM »
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Re: Suggestion Two


Go here.



Offline Dezzrevas

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Re: Suggestions For Bridging Summit and Forums
« Reply #2 on: 11/17/15, 03:34:13 PM »
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Karmic I agree on many of your points fully. The note taker has changed hands a few times now.  We are hoping to get at least 4 people that can take notes for each Summit one for each aspect of the game. Mainly to prevent any biases from influencing the note taking more or less for any one part. As it is now we have a temporary note taker with very little time to get them posted. That is no excuse for the delays but the reality of the situation as it stands. So I guess this is an official call for help from the community to fill at least one of these gaps. Each of the notes from every meeting should be posted on each events forum page and on the forum page in the official swtor site.
This is the audio for all the summits over the summer if this helps you get a feel for what the summits covered. After every event we have had a recording of we have posted that in the event forum post.  From newest to oldest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL5MRR2NRRs&list=PL9O9_-D_t3qPH57vAlRaRii2p2i0EJLO9
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYl-DZbDgCY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL5MRR2NRRs

Getting voices heard is a major concern for the summits. We ask that if you are not able to make the summits that you try to post any topics you want to be brought up to help the agenda apply to you more deeply. With having that in the event posting we can also have part of the discussion before the event and address any issue in a more open way. The poll was a try at figuring out when we could hit the most for attendance though it seems to have not been well received yet. We depend on everyone's constructive input to move anything forward And welcome any ways to get those communication lines flowing. In closing I would like to thank Karmic for bringing her concerns and observations into the discussion.




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Offline SivWysan

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Re: Suggestions For Bridging Summit and Forums
« Reply #3 on: 11/17/15, 08:06:05 PM »
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Here are the minutes of the RP meeting, by the way.  I didn't think to re-link them until after that Senate debate blew up as it was mid-work week and slipped my mind.  But this would probably of helped- as you can see, for most of those things it was all about "new ideas for opt-in events and networking IC/OOC" rather than heavy handed decisions for others.  Which has been the general theme of all the Summits, in my experience thus far. 

Quote re: the Senate idea- which more or less covered the exact concerns raised here, simply without the degree of frustration triggered by fears thing were being imposed by others  The clearest decisions I saw come out of it were
1) To take time to develop the idea VERY cautiously and 2) to find names and a general mission that would seem less contentious/imposing than the Senate.  Unfortunately neither of those decisions really came through in the recent proposal here, though I tried to rehash them in my feedback.  :
 
-"Senate/War Coalitions/Councils (Ah-ran) Planning sessions filling vital role in driving RP and Plots, but with ideas to keep fresh, exciting and non-heirarchical/accessible to players not just Guild Leaders.  Concern names and authority not seem heavy handed to Server as whole, driven by collaborative storytelling not ego.  Ideas of surprise plot hooks during, perhaps by the Guild or group hosting the event in a given week.  Collaboration and Spontaneity generating new plots, not just same Guild/RP planners (Tien-Fae) Rotating worlds or Strongholds?  (A lot of interest in this, but sense of group to take a little time on name and planning, ensure we get it right)"

Having handled minutes/reports on a few occassion I can say they've been happening, I created a few myself (although sadly audio files did not format right the night of the RP Summit).  I second Karmic's general concern, though that proposals are listed clearly for others to consider and give more feedback on.  I don't think this SHOULD ever include anything binding/imposed on the whole server because that is not the point of the Summits as I understand them.  Just building connections and more resource/events for those who want them
« Last Edit: 11/17/15, 08:08:29 PM by SivWysan »



Offline Karmic

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Re: Suggestions For Bridging Summit and Forums
« Reply #4 on: 11/18/15, 12:14:55 AM »
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Re: Suggestion Two


Go here.

This Confuses me Cordae. That seems more like a thread to PM the admin team suggestions about these forums and then a thread to discuss said suggestions to the forum.  To me that seems mechanical stuff?  Like you said.. shout box to left.

I'm talking about a person/threads (one for each topic.. not one per summit..)who goes, "Hey - yesterday at the Summit meeting Blahblah brought up a good point about how the chat room should keep things civil.  He suggested everyone go fart on themselves.  And then everyone talked about how that might be a good idea, but some people wanted to burp.  And then a third group of people wondered about how they would actualy fart on themselves.  So we also wanted to include you guys in on this discussion and tabled any sort of decision for after this thread burns out.  Please let us know what points you want noted... blahblahblah.."

A huge difference in what I'm reading that to mean and what... I am meaning.   :grin:

Or what am I reading wrong?


~~~

And wonderful Dezz glad to hear at least I'm not the only person to have this idea  :lightside:  And yea I know how IRL interferes with notes but pushing that priority is also important.  I would also suggest when posting audio-clips one suggest the time on them.  Helps when figuring out when one might want to listen/set aside time.

But huzzah!

~~~~~

ANd yes Siv - YES THAT WOULD HAVE BEEEN HELPFUL YES... and would have taken the conversation in another way; at least on my end.  Having been on this server since day one, I have been aware of The Sith Order guild(s) for years and knowing the setup of their own guild already biased my opinion on what exactly they were asking/suggesting.

 And yes - its difficult sometimes for people who aren't in on the planning stuff/discussion directly to think of a group of people "discussing things about the server" isn't trying to impose.. some sort of XYZ.  That it really is just to try and spur ideas and create connections... but those left out feel more and more left out the less transparent things are.

Notes certainly aren't the only thing.  I did them like clockwork and still the thing fell apart at the last MMO I was a part of something bigger.  But at least it took longer  :nuu:  :aww: #donttrytoherdcats

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Offline hamlinius

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Re: Suggestions For Bridging Summit and Forums
« Reply #5 on: 11/20/15, 10:07:06 AM »
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Quote
This, for example, could have been a better setup to solve the IC Senate/Council idea/discussion thread than just random person volunteering to give an explanation - when the rest of us responding don't know where they are coming from, what was discussed, what's going on, etc.  Having someone already familiar with posting on the forums, to present in a readable manner the important points of the concerns/ideas being raised and opening the floor from there.  It would also allow for whatever talk going on in the forums - for whatever good points are made pro/con - to be SUMMARIZED by the person going BACK to the next Summit for that meeting - in order to move forward.

yes that would have been the best way to go, and will most likely be used going forward.   Trying hard not to take that the wrong way though.  kinda smacks of if your not a known person you shouldn't post here even though you took the time to be at the summit.  I do however volunteer to do this in the future.  Now that everyone here knows who i am. ;)

Offline hamlinius

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Re: Suggestions For Bridging Summit and Forums
« Reply #6 on: 11/20/15, 10:39:36 AM »
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actually i'm confused.   the summit is open to ALL guilds GM+1  or a stand in for the GM.  For the individual not in a guild they are welcome too.  The meetings thus far have been fairly organized.   I agree the info should be posted here both before the summit to get feed back and then after the summit for discussion.  but there has to come a time when if the individual doesn't participate in some way i.e. attending the summit, reading the forums or the like. I guess at some point we have to say "this doesn't apply to you."   In many groups i'm part of if you aren't present you don't get to vote.  Not to be harsh but sometimes things have to get done.  I have said often in the summits we can talk all we want but if there is no action following the talk then it's just talk.   Call me a firebrand if you want, but fact is unless we follow through on what is talked about then all that energy is just wasted air.......figuratively speaking. 

On not being able to attend a meeting.  They are scheduled weeks in advance.  I know they are posted here.  If someone simply can't make it.  i.e. they are on the other side of the planet.   That's what the forums are for.  If they choose to be involved then their voice will be heard.  No this isn't going to be easy.  We are going to have to work for this. 

Offline Seraphie

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Re: Suggestions For Bridging Summit and Forums
« Reply #7 on: 11/20/15, 11:06:20 AM »
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On not being able to attend a meeting.  They are scheduled weeks in advance.  I know they are posted here.  If someone simply can't make it.  i.e. they are on the other side of the planet.   That's what the forums are for.  If they choose to be involved then their voice will be heard.  No this isn't going to be easy.  We are going to have to work for this.

Please consider that even for those of us who are heavily involved in rp in this community, both participating and leading, this is -not- a job, and the summit will not always rank as first priority, even if it's something important and scheduled weeks in advanced. It doesn't mean we're not interested, nor does it mean we're not willing to do our part. It means higher priorities came up, whether those be work, family or even sleep for some of our members for whom the summit time is 2 am. Yes, there is an onus on those of us who can't make it to try to do some follow up to find out what happened, but their voices should be heard too, which is why an agenda ahead of time, with the possibility of posting opinions, suggestions, ideas, gives those members a chance to be heard.

Offline Crimsen

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Re: Suggestions For Bridging Summit and Forums
« Reply #8 on: 11/20/15, 01:28:21 PM »
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On not being able to attend a meeting.  They are scheduled weeks in advance.  I know they are posted here.  If someone simply can't make it.  i.e. they are on the other side of the planet.   That's what the forums are for.  If they choose to be involved then their voice will be heard.  No this isn't going to be easy.  We are going to have to work for this.


Hmmmmm... You have good points to say, yet at the same time you seem to be doing a good job of touching nerves. On the one hand, have a thick skin for the internet. On the other hand that should not give anyone and everyone a free pass. I recommend re-reading your posts before hitting the "post" button on .

Offline Semah

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Re: Suggestions For Bridging Summit and Forums
« Reply #9 on: 11/20/15, 01:36:40 PM »
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Following up on Seraphie's point, we have a wide diversity of timezones represented here too. We aren't all able to stay up late for RP, and if we can't stay up late for RP we can't stay up late for a summit. :(

Offline SivWysan

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Re: Suggestions For Bridging Summit and Forums
« Reply #10 on: 11/20/15, 01:37:37 PM »
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I think the idea of an Agenda, now that the initial RP and PVP/PVE game areas have identified more working topics, is fair.  Trying to post it at least a week or two out, so people who are not present can log comments in a thread here- and those comments can be read at the Summit and be considered part of the formal discussion/minutes. 



Offline SivWysan

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Re: Suggestions For Bridging Summit and Forums
« Reply #11 on: 11/20/15, 01:39:01 PM »
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Problem is, not being there will always mean missing out on unexpected developments or collaboration- but simply giving folks a chance to comment first on topics will let us know if something is too complex or senstive to finalize at one meeting (ie- do what the Summit can, and suggest tabling it or sending it out to the most-interested Guilds to continue tweeking before the next Summit)



Offline Karmic

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Re: Suggestions For Bridging Summit and Forums
« Reply #12 on: 11/20/15, 09:27:30 PM »
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Problem is, not being there will always mean missing out on unexpected developments or collaboration- but simply giving folks a chance to comment first on topics will let us know if something is too complex or senstive to finalize at one meeting (ie- do what the Summit can, and suggest tabling it or sending it out to the most-interested Guilds to continue tweeking before the next Summit)

That's what the minutes are for afterwards - if not verbetium - then at least a summary.

Noone wants to read verbetium word for word if they aren't "live" so no need to do that :).

And yes - for those who only do the forums and can't attend the meetings - and for those who never come to these forums but who's guild is active in the meetings - that is the point of having the informaiton spread ALL ACROSS THE LAND....

So no matter which way you come at it, you can be at least somewhat cognizant of what's going on at the other-half.

Up until these minutes were posted after I made the thread -0 there was zippo communication back to us of what happened at the SUmmit.  So we have/had no way of knowing (if we couldn't go to that one...) what is going on.

And yes Ham - I know some peopel on the forums have felt the same way about some of the "outsiders" come in and telling us suggestions - "At some point you just have to jump in and be involved or else you don't really have an impact..."  People who have never RPed or visited these forums before coming in and telling us what we need to have more of...or what types of meetings we should be doing... when they've never spent an hour RPing with people here and have not bothered/seeming to not bothered to find out what we're about.

Yea, the feeling can be mutual my dear - so remember that it just doesn't apply to people who don't go to the meetings.

((btw that is said with no harm intended; no snark; no emotion - just reversing the logic back to say it applies to both ends.... ))
« Last Edit: 11/20/15, 09:30:29 PM by Karmic »

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Offline SivWysan

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Re: Suggestions For Bridging Summit and Forums
« Reply #13 on: 11/20/15, 09:49:39 PM »
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Up until these minutes were posted after I made the thread -0 there was zippo communication back to us of what happened at the SUmmit.  So we have/had no way of knowing (if we couldn't go to that one...) what is going on.

Relinked though, not posted... I posted (and worked hard to promote them) months back.  :P  So not zero communication.  Would encourage both folks here, but also those at Summit to check minutes in future- since some of the recent Senate proposals seemed to forget the caution I had noted many guilds expressing in the RP Summit.  :).

Though maybe some sort of index of minutes threads (with dates/rough area like RP,PVP) etc would help find better- though each its own thread to allow for plenty of comment.



Offline Karmic

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Re: Suggestions For Bridging Summit and Forums
« Reply #14 on: 11/20/15, 11:06:16 PM »
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Could certainly be posted in THIS forum so that way everyone can go tot he same place for the info.

And my apologies Caben I don't remember at all ever reading minutes! But we are old...  :aww:

And yea you could start each thread with "Summit Meeting from 12/4/15"... start with the notes and such and then comments from there.  If a big subject opend up needing its own thread - it could branch off but stay in THIS forum as this is the Summit forum stuff and that way te people who are NOT regulars here can find all the information easier?

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