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Author Topic: [Light Spoilers] Guide to the KotFE-Era Galaxy  (Read 4997 times)

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Offline Karmic

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Re: [Light Spoilers] Guide to the KotFE-Era Galaxy
« Reply #30 on: 01/03/16, 12:47:52 PM »
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This really makes NO sense to me but okey.  That the Jedi would bolt and run away when the Republic (and the galaxy) needed them.

Probably no more than they ran when Darth Revan turned up. The Jedi have been fighting and dying across two intergalactic wars and a particularly bloody cold war, plus the Revanites, Hutts, Dread Masters...its not unreasonable to think that the Eternal Empire simply killed or turned enough of them that the rest scattered or hung up their lightsabers.
There's only so many Jedi in the galaxy.

But isnt' that also true about Sith?  Or is it just my impression of the plotline that less Sith ran than Jedi... LOL :darkside:

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Offline Isarii

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Re: [Light Spoilers] Guide to the KotFE-Era Galaxy
« Reply #31 on: 01/03/16, 12:53:12 PM »
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Or when all the remaining Jedi went into hiding at the end of Episode 3. I'm not sure if it's true that this isn't supported by the movies - Jedi love to run and hide!

Offline Dorian

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Re: [Light Spoilers] Guide to the KotFE-Era Galaxy
« Reply #32 on: 01/03/16, 01:13:40 PM »
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This really makes NO sense to me but okey.  That the Jedi would bolt and run away when the Republic (and the galaxy) needed them.

Probably no more than they ran when Darth Revan turned up. The Jedi have been fighting and dying across two intergalactic wars and a particularly bloody cold war, plus the Revanites, Hutts, Dread Masters...its not unreasonable to think that the Eternal Empire simply killed or turned enough of them that the rest scattered or hung up their lightsabers.
There's only so many Jedi in the galaxy.

But isnt' that also true about Sith?  Or is it just my impression of the plotline that less Sith ran than Jedi... LOL :darkside:

On the official game site for the expansion it said both the Jedi and Sith retreated to their temples. Both sides noped out hard after Zakuul showed up.

Online Wymarc

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Re: [Light Spoilers] Guide to the KotFE-Era Galaxy
« Reply #33 on: 01/03/16, 01:13:55 PM »
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This really makes NO sense to me but okey.  That the Jedi would bolt and run away when the Republic (and the galaxy) needed them.

Probably no more than they ran when Darth Revan turned up. The Jedi have been fighting and dying across two intergalactic wars and a particularly bloody cold war, plus the Revanites, Hutts, Dread Masters...its not unreasonable to think that the Eternal Empire simply killed or turned enough of them that the rest scattered or hung up their lightsabers.
There's only so many Jedi in the galaxy.

But isnt' that also true about Sith?  Or is it just my impression of the plotline that less Sith ran than Jedi... LOL :darkside:

My guess is more Jedi are hiding than Sith, but more Sith are dead.
Jedi Master Telline - The Shadow
Aurena Durane - The Reporter
Jedi Knight Temet Mireth-Kar - The Mad Scientist
Captain Paric Aradenn - The Loyalist

Offline Joshmaul

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Re: [Light Spoilers] Guide to the KotFE-Era Galaxy
« Reply #34 on: 01/03/16, 01:40:30 PM »
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My guess is more Jedi are hiding than Sith, but more Sith are dead.

Because that's how we roll.
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Offline Orell

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Re: [Light Spoilers] Guide to the KotFE-Era Galaxy
« Reply #35 on: 01/03/16, 04:22:09 PM »
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Something to keep in mind is the difference between Jedi and Sith when it comes to their governments.

Sith run the Empire. They basically make up the entire political establishment. They say who the Empire goes to war with, and while there's a large variety of interpretations of Sith that are fascinating when they work together... there's not a large tradition of pacifism among Sith.

The Jedi, meanwhile? They don't run the Republic. They refuse to do so, because of their own principals. And, in general, they aren't exactly fans of open warfare.

The Sith don't have any reason to go into hiding. Many of them would want to keep their power bases and do what they can. Meanwhile, Jedi do have a reason to go into hiding: Fewer Jedi means they have less influence on the Republic's politics, and Saresh's push for more war isn't exactly what the Jedi signed up for. Why continue to serve a corrupt government continuing an unjust war?
Character List:

Pub side: Lien Orell, Kyri Orell, Shaantil (possibly Dumas), Norland, Everen (bank alt ATM), Quarashaa (Pub version of the real Quarasha), Merrant

Imp Side: Quarasha, Effet Ornell, Arazel, Zedney, Zhel, Asori-Alnas

Offline Joshmaul

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Re: [Light Spoilers] Guide to the KotFE-Era Galaxy
« Reply #36 on: 01/03/16, 04:43:36 PM »
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The Sith don't have any reason to go into hiding. Many of them would want to keep their power bases and do what they can.

Some might say this is a perfect reason to go into hiding, but I digress...

Meanwhile, Jedi do have a reason to go into hiding: Fewer Jedi means they have less influence on the Republic's politics, and Saresh's push for more war isn't exactly what the Jedi signed up for. Why continue to serve a corrupt government continuing an unjust war?

This is the big clincher, yeah. Saresh made it clear that Zakuul was just a "second front", and one she believed was fightable; the "real enemy" was the Sith. Thus, it resulted in thousands of unnecessary casualties, because Saresh is blinded by hate and does not realize the mistake she is making, only that "Sith must die, who cares that someone even worse than they are has conquered us". Now no small number of Jedi would look at that and go "yeah, maybe", but I would think the majority of them would be like "bitch, you crazy". Who would want to add more meat to the grinder just to satisfy Saresh's bloodlust?
Circled tomb of a different age
Secret lines carved on ancient stone
Heroic kings laid down to rest
Forgotten is the race that no one knows


Offline Orell

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Re: [Light Spoilers] Guide to the KotFE-Era Galaxy
« Reply #37 on: 01/03/16, 05:09:46 PM »
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The Sith don't have any reason to go into hiding. Many of them would want to keep their power bases and do what they can.

Some might say this is a perfect reason to go into hiding, but I digress...

The reason I say that is because power bases require resources. Troops need food, weapons and shelter, starships require regular maintenance, R&D requires staff, materials and power...

The bigger a hidden thing is, the easier it is to find. The Empire lasted a long time in secret, of course, but to go back into hiding, they'd have to give up a lot of their power bases to pull it off. Remember, it took over a thousand years for the Empire to recover from the Great Hyperspace War.

I'm not saying that NO Sith would slink away into the shadows, Quar's been doing that for a LONG while. I'm more just speaking to the average, run of the mill NPC Sith.
Character List:

Pub side: Lien Orell, Kyri Orell, Shaantil (possibly Dumas), Norland, Everen (bank alt ATM), Quarashaa (Pub version of the real Quarasha), Merrant

Imp Side: Quarasha, Effet Ornell, Arazel, Zedney, Zhel, Asori-Alnas

Offline Karmic

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Re: [Light Spoilers] Guide to the KotFE-Era Galaxy
« Reply #38 on: 01/04/16, 02:56:49 PM »
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The Sith don't have any reason to go into hiding. Many of them would want to keep their power bases and do what they can.

Some might say this is a perfect reason to go into hiding, but I digress...

Meanwhile, Jedi do have a reason to go into hiding: Fewer Jedi means they have less influence on the Republic's politics, and Saresh's push for more war isn't exactly what the Jedi signed up for. Why continue to serve a corrupt government continuing an unjust war?

This is the big clincher, yeah. Saresh made it clear that Zakuul was just a "second front", and one she believed was fightable; the "real enemy" was the Sith. Thus, it resulted in thousands of unnecessary casualties, because Saresh is blinded by hate and does not realize the mistake she is making, only that "Sith must die, who cares that someone even worse than they are has conquered us". Now no small number of Jedi would look at that and go "yeah, maybe", but I would think the majority of them would be like "bitch, you crazy". Who would want to add more meat to the grinder just to satisfy Saresh's bloodlust?

Oh I never thought Saresh's rage made much sense for a Jedi to back (or a Sith and Acina... again the logic just doesn't hold I don't care how crazy the Darkside makes you - the bigger threat is a bigger threat and the guys that rarely ever beat you into submission are certialy less ofa  threat then the force that beat you into submission backwards and sideways in 3 months...).

But the EE seems like a major threat to the galaxy - something a Jedi wouldn't have easy logic for just running off and ignoring and "hoping it goes away" or "GOOD LUCK REST OF GALAXY!"  Implying  a much more self-centered viewpoint than most Jedi like to espout...

Or maybe Jedi are really a hell of a lot more selfish than we ever thought and they don't give a farts-blossom about the rest of the galaxy...long as a few Jedi survive?

As for the "disappearing" between Episodes 3 and 4.  I go the idea they didn't disappear, they got killed - dead - most of them after episode 3.  By Four it wasn't just "the jedi are hiding" its "there are none - now there is one...".

And I also don't care for backwards logic using plots that came after 4, 5, 6 to explain the start of 4 so you make sense of the end of 3.  The Jedi didn't just go into hiding, they died out - if not for Luke Skywalker there would be no Jedi, period.

Would one consider that a sound and good and logical plan? Well no - you just died slower.

(Sorry its one of the plot armor things I have an issue with - little of this makes any sense and its really hard for me to RP a character in a plotline that makes little sense.... lol.)

History Posts:  Her Backstory , Darth-Hood

Offline Seraphie

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Re: [Light Spoilers] Guide to the KotFE-Era Galaxy
« Reply #39 on: 01/04/16, 04:08:19 PM »
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But the EE seems like a major threat to the galaxy - something a Jedi wouldn't have easy logic for just running off and ignoring and "hoping it goes away" or "GOOD LUCK REST OF GALAXY!"  Implying  a much more self-centered viewpoint than most Jedi like to espout...

My comment here, would be from the point of my shadow, Zurshufis, who, in my rp, is still pre-invasion, post attack on Korriban. He's prepping his padawan for disappearing. Not because they don't care about the rest of the galaxy, but because this is what a shadow does. In the face of a seemingly unsurmountable enemy, you go to ground and work from the shadows to help however you can.

Even looking at it from the point of view of other Jedi, non-shadows, probably a lot of them died on the front lines in those first three months. At some point, you call for a strategic retreat. They do the galaxy no good if they all get wiped out. If, however, they pull back and go into hiding, regroup, spend some time collecting intelligence, watching, measuring, calculating, in order to re-appear when they have a possibility of actually driving Zakuul out, that would make sense to me.

Not sure if the spoiler tag is necessary, but just in case...
Spoiler: show

When we see Sateel, she isn't just hiding, she's watching what's going on. I get the sense that she's acknowledged that the Jedi alone can't take out this threat, but she's watching for who could take it out, and I'm assuming, when some group shows itself likely to have some success, the Jedi who are left will make their way there and join it.


That's how I see it at least.

Offline Karmic

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Re: [Light Spoilers] Guide to the KotFE-Era Galaxy
« Reply #40 on: 01/04/16, 06:06:44 PM »
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What makes sense to you ....Stell..

Yea that's what I'm saying would make sense to me.

Cuz yea, Karmic "goes underground" (not really under but just not as active on the core worlds...) once its clear they aren't going to win - she goes out to KI and helps those she can, while always working towards a way of overthrowing the Man...

And the "Now we start to have a chance" is kinda how the war rooms have been operating - "oh we're just poking our heads out now that we have a few well laid opportunities for some payback...." :evil:  And people start to come back.

Strategic retreat and intelligence collection vs. a "RUN AWAY RUN AWAY!".

Maybe its how I interpreted the text from both sides was more of a RUN AWAY RUN AWAY but... again. could be just me :).

History Posts:  Her Backstory , Darth-Hood

Offline Orell

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Re: [Light Spoilers] Guide to the KotFE-Era Galaxy
« Reply #41 on: 01/04/16, 07:54:01 PM »
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First off, Karmic, no one has a chance against Zakuul right now. The Eternal Fleet is so crazy powerful that even the Sith Empire preferred peace to continued warfare. To 99.999% of the galaxy, the only thing that's changed since the treaty was signed is that the tributes are having a profound impact on the galactic economy.

Spoiler: Legit spoilers for KOTFE • show
The only reason anyone has a chance right now is the Gravestone has a weapon on it that can wreck the EE like nobody's business, but that's not exactly common knowledge yet, and even if it were... it's still one hell of a longshot.


To me, the reason why the Jedi are in hiding is a little on the complicated side, but works out if you think about it:
  • The Zakuul Empire's war decimated the ranks of the Jedi. They're probably not all dead, but they've clearly lost a lot of headcount
  • The Sith Empire was hit similarly hard, although perhaps not quite as badly.
  • Both the Republic and the Empire lost a massive amount of materiel, especially starships and the means to construct more, greatly inhibiting galactic warfare.
  • Zakuul is not engaging in conquest against the Republic or the Empire.
  • Saresh is an extremely popular woman, and is the defacto leader of the Republic, Chancellor or no.
  • Saresh has a hatred of the Sith Empire so severe that it impresses the Sith.
  • Thanks to the actions of Theron's Sixth Line group and Satele temporarily allying with the Empire to sort out the Revanite problem, Saresh has a growing distrust of the Jedi
  • The low numbers of Jedi remaining greatly limits their ability to have a significant public impact on the Republic, especially politically.
  • Saresh is crazy-pants and restarted the war against the Sith Empire basically as soon as she could.

So, what's the options for the Jedi?
  • Status quo, stay public in the Republic, and continue to prosecute a war against the Sith Empire that would leave both sides weaker, reduce the number of Jedi even further and limit the options for when they can turn back against Zakuul
  • Stay public in the Republic, but refuse to fight in the war against the Sith Empire. While it's possible it might rally enough support to put a stop to the war... it feels far more likely that it might give Saresh the excuse she needs to declare the Jedi Order to be traitors and in comes Order 66, a few millenia early.
  • Go into hiding, work from the shadows however they can to prevent the war from getting too nasty, and wait for an opening.

Since the Republic and Empire's ability to wage war is diminished so greatly... there's not exactly an ever-present threat that either side would get conquered. It's like if Japan and England were at war in the year 1000 AD. It's just kinda hard to get armies into position without the ships for it.

Sometimes? The hardest thing for good people to do is... nothing. Not because they don't want to, or because they are physically unable to, but being able to and knowing that helping would just cause more suffering. It's the undercover cop watching an innocent man get shot, or the world leader refusing to get involved in another nation's civil war.

Merrant was in that place when I started RPing him. He wanted to make up for all the Sithy fun he had, but he also knew that he was in no emotional state to get into combat, let alone take a life. While he's busier than the average Jedi (the damn ship keeps breaking!), he see's the strategy as basically being Galactic Soresu: Hold back, wait, stay patient and look for the opening that might give you the win.

I'm not saying that what the Jedi are doing is the morally right thing, or even the smart thing. Just that I can see why it's happening.
Character List:

Pub side: Lien Orell, Kyri Orell, Shaantil (possibly Dumas), Norland, Everen (bank alt ATM), Quarashaa (Pub version of the real Quarasha), Merrant

Imp Side: Quarasha, Effet Ornell, Arazel, Zedney, Zhel, Asori-Alnas

Offline Karmic

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Re: [Light Spoilers] Guide to the KotFE-Era Galaxy
« Reply #42 on: 01/05/16, 07:21:34 AM »
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Ooh thank you for all the logic pieces Orell that really helps for those of us NOT playing any Republic side characters.

All the names I get so confused... boo.

I was trying to think on what was "stickin' in my craw' about this; maybe its because I do see so many opportunities perhaps not for the Jedi to "stick around" fully, but to do more than retreat and wait.

Perhaps because I have Karmic going back to her Business Planets and using those as a spring-board for more work for the Empire - I could EASILY see Jedi's doing more this type of thing than I guess what Jedi did per. BIOWARE (Or what our own PCs are doing...).

The idea of yea, as a "Unit" in retreat/hiding/keeping on the DL.  But still having Jedi all over the place on their homeplanets or whatever serving the needy - providing havens for refugees - etc.

Maybe my confusion is the lack of the number of PC Jedis who did anything at all  - perhaps that surprises me - when I expected more to be "active" in the five years even if in hiding (More like Karmic or Malagant...).

Or yea maybe more that its different from the "moral right" thing to do (not so much stay hidden but the not helping at all part...) and I'm still stuck with the 6yo girls idea of a Jedi as a moral right hero; and they just.... really aren't.

History Posts:  Her Backstory , Darth-Hood

Offline Toasty McGrath

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Re: [Light Spoilers] Guide to the KotFE-Era Galaxy
« Reply #43 on: 01/05/16, 08:58:56 AM »
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And to be fair, the new cold war does afford some opportunities for characters to branch out of their pigeonholes if you want them to. With the Jedi going off the grid, some (like the NPCs we find on Odessen) would likely get fed up with the inaction and find alternatives to the Jedi Order to get things done. A Jedi could take the opportunity to join the SIS like Ardun Kothe did during the first cold war, where he left the Order amicably and without burning any bridges. The Order could even make it semi-official, labeling it a "government liaison" position. A Jedi could have taken the four years of official peace off and gotten a degree, since I can't imagine the Jedi Order would discourage the pursuit of higher education. He or she would be lying low and trying to do the most good as a civilian, with the new post-jump RP being their re-entry into the political situation they had tried so hard to forget about. The internal struggle alone would lead to good writing. Stuff like that. The new setting feels like you can have your characters do some non-Jedi stuff as long as you stay true to your character and they aren't flamboyantly jumping around shouting "HEY, JEDI ON SABBATICAL RIGHT HERE!"

The big point behind this is that I don't get the impression that the Jedi are actively being hunted like they were after the Great Jedi Purge, just that they all recognize it would be a safer bet to remain generally unseen. They aren't hiding because they fear they will be slaughtered en masse, they are hiding because they recognize it's just the safer way to handle things right now. I don't think a Jedi would have to seriously hide their identity while travelling to most places of the Galaxy, they'd just have to be cautious not to make waves with the EE. The writers have given no indication of a great massacre or purge of the Jedi like Arcann did to the Scions. The Eternal Empire is obviously trying to keep tabs on the remaining Force users of the Galaxy since they are the biggest threat to his rule, but that's the most we can infer. Don't read into things that aren't actually stated or even implied in the lore yet. For all we know, Chapter 11 will be when the EE brings down the hammer on the Outlander and all the ugly, grim, Jedi purgey stuff happens, and we'd feel kind of silly having to retcon things.

TLDR: You aren't required to have your Jedi or Sith hiding on a swamp on Dagobah for the last four years. This wasn't Order 66.

Online Wymarc

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Re: [Light Spoilers] Guide to the KotFE-Era Galaxy
« Reply #44 on: 01/05/16, 09:34:52 AM »
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Maybe my confusion is the lack of the number of PC Jedis who did anything at all  - perhaps that surprises me - when I expected more to be "active" in the five years even if in hiding (More like Karmic or Malagant...).

1) Most of the Jedi PCs I know are with the Custodum, and most of them have been lost in the Unknown Regions since the war started. Now that they're back, they are building an Imperial War Room-like organization to resist Zakuul.

2) The Jedi who were active are being sneaky. And they don't trust Sith. As such, it makes sense for Sith to have not heard about what the Jedi are up to.

Example: Telline, while in hiding in the Core Worlds, has been helping disappear VIPs that may be in danger of getting snatched by Zakuul. She's the first stop in an underground railroad from Coruscant to less watched worlds in the Mid Rim.
Jedi Master Telline - The Shadow
Aurena Durane - The Reporter
Jedi Knight Temet Mireth-Kar - The Mad Scientist
Captain Paric Aradenn - The Loyalist