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Author Topic: Under 100 - Core Rules System  (Read 4712 times)

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Offline Niarra

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Re: RP System (Under 100) - Looking for Feedback
« Reply #15 on: 07/30/16, 11:44:19 AM »
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One other thing that Karmic mentioned... Do we have a stealth skill? How would stealth and sneaking be handled by the system?

Melee Agile governs stealth as well. It's a powerful skill group, but ultimately so are most of them. The danger of condensing lots of skills into a handful of groups is that each bucket holds a lot of stuff and can be easily exploited. Sort of as with the History skill, I think it comes down to really needing to trust that most of your players won't abuse, and will play true to their character concept. I couldn't think of any way that enforced limited applications without ballooning the system. :(

As a silver lining, though, my hope was that keeping the skill groups generalized meant that if a player asked to take an action that wasn't already  officially assigned to a certain skill group, a GM would still easily be able to decree what skill group it should fall under based on general concept.
Niarra Reymark, Jedi Master and Diplomat // Derrad Reymark, Starfighter Ace and Softie // Jheva, Padawan and Pattern Reader // Yatei, Jedi Knight // Zelek Arr, Corn Grower
Sivala, Sith Academy Overseer // Rannayel, Sith Lord and Museum Curator
Erran Veshkgalaar, Mandalorian Accountant // Caustrin Neyvor, Dangerous Puppeteer // Ariza Fey, Psycho and Pyro // Kettur Vaen, Semi-Spook

Offline Karmic

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Re: RP System (Under 100) - Looking for Feedback
« Reply #16 on: 07/30/16, 11:54:37 AM »
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One other thing that Karmic mentioned... Do we have a stealth skill? How would stealth and sneaking be handled by the system?

Melee Agile governs stealth as well. It's a powerful skill group, but ultimately so are most of them. The danger of condensing lots of skills into a handful of groups is that each bucket holds a lot of stuff and can be easily exploited. Sort of as with the History skill, I think it comes down to really needing to trust that most of your players won't abuse, and will play true to their character concept. I couldn't think of any way that enforced limited applications without ballooning the system. :(

As a silver lining, though, my hope was that keeping the skill groups generalized meant that if a player asked to take an action that wasn't already  officially assigned to a certain skill group, a GM would still easily be able to decree what skill group it should fall under based on general concept.

So, how does Force Using Stealth Work?  Still just categorizing it under Melee Agile?  Or does that also (or instead) become governed by the Force Skill?

Or the highest value?

Just curious, I wasn't able to test-play with the Jedi stuff but after reading this and looking over the stats got me curious how it would be handled.  (And if I do its Karmic main default start position - attacking from stealth and her stealth is 100% the use of the Force.)

Also re: how OP the skill can get and trusting your player base - I think (at least around here in controlled events) most people are pretty good about not playing a mega-powerful-Goddess until the boss fight anyway ;).  And I think its a LOT easier to guide unknowing or less-RP-skilled players in a GM event to help them keep from being way too OP with their actions than it is in free-form RP.

I guess my way of saying that for *this* Setting I can see how a possible "flaw to exploit" wouldn't necessarily be a huge issue coming up often.

But that's been my own experiences being in our community events over the years. :grin:

Its more when people free-form RP fight (esp. with strangers or newer people they aren't familiar with) that *I* have found people really getting overboard with their oober-godlike-force powers or whatever.  YMMV!
« Last Edit: 07/30/16, 11:57:34 AM by Karmic »

History Posts:  Her Backstory , Darth-Hood

Offline LVT

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Re: RP System (Under 100) - Looking for Feedback
« Reply #17 on: 07/30/16, 04:02:40 PM »
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Personally other than the deflection and the disarming, I had a blast. Hark has a thing against killing people, so I'd be using the disarm (or even subdue) action a lot, should it be given. I'd like the deflect rules to be more streamline'd too, and Hark will probably end up trying to tank hits for other people, considering form III and his personality.
Turari (29, Major, jr. grade CEDF)     Silivia Fenir (21, Freighter Captain)
Lashila Sellara (25, Grey Sith)         Harkasone Milan (29, Philanthropist)
Reill Farr(31, Silent Mandalorian)     Mystenin Felsa (26, 'Green' Jedi)
Touko Saizar(19, Turari's underling) Temple Guard #124(35, Pro Spook)
                                                    Freya Merril (?, ???)

Offline Zmaj

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Re: RP System (Under 100) - Looking for Feedback
« Reply #18 on: 07/30/16, 06:36:47 PM »
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If there's a specific skill (like the artistry: [insert specifics here]) that's worth noting, players could probably list them beforehand in order to avoid any abuse of the system.

I've never used a system like this, and it was fun! It's more precised than just a pass/fail dice roll and puts limits on skills that you're not so good at, which makes their uses more believable when faced with a situation/enemy that require them. Since disarming and deflection are things that happened in our game, it's probably worth creating a small check for them. Nothing too complicated of course. What you have planned out covers a lot of bases.

I also enjoyed the story TONS!!!
Zmaj: 32, Chiss agent, lover of intrigue wine
Caesiallus: 34, Twi'lek bartender, info-broker
Varinas: 40, Human Darth, archivist, former "diplomat"

Seem: 38, Rattataki Jedi Master, resident grump
Vashya'ati: 34, Togruta Jedi Sage, small-time archaeologist
Ash'tana: 32, Miraluka smuggler, trouble-finder extraordinaire

Offline Niarra

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Re: RP System (Under 100) - Looking for Feedback
« Reply #19 on: 07/31/16, 01:08:02 PM »
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So, how does Force Using Stealth Work?  Still just categorizing it under Melee Agile?  Or does that also (or instead) become governed by the Force Skill?

Or the highest value?

Interesting question. I think this is a good example of a place where the player and GM just need to come to an understanding. That's probably just a safe assumption in any scenario when a player knows their character does something that may be unique or highly specialized.

If I were GMing that scenario with this system, I would agree that it could fall under the Force category. But I do think some sort of conference with the GM is needed, because that can be subjective; not all people interpret what the Force is capable of in the same way. If it were outside of this exact game I would probably argue against it being a Force skill, just because I've never been comfortable with the idea of the Force making people "invisible," but in this game that's so much a part of the setting that I don't believe it would be fair to say otherwise.

(As a SW tabletop GM I'm rather brutal about chopping down the Force power options that I permit in my games. "But it's in the book!" they protest. "I don't care. I am the GM. I am god," is my unsympathetic answer. But in this scenario I think a GM should absolutely allow for the spectrum of abilities the actual game uses and features. Ok, except maybe Phase Walk... because I can't accept that the Force allows you to teleport...  :wtf:)

I'd say that it would be a good idea for a player to check in with the GM on any questions like that in advance, ideally when they are creating their skill stats. That way if the GM rules one way or the other, the player can know how to build accordingly.

I guess my way of saying that for *this* Setting I can see how a possible "flaw to exploit" wouldn't necessarily be a huge issue coming up often.

Yeah, that's been my general feeling as well, from observing the majority of the RPers who participate in this community. <3  :aww:

Its more when people free-form RP fight (esp. with strangers or newer people they aren't familiar with) that *I* have found people really getting overboard with their oober-godlike-force powers or whatever.  YMMV!

Oh yeah. Most of the time, I've found that a player who really strongly resists the idea of any sort of rules being involved in a fight between player characters is doing so because if they can't be the uber-god then they're just not interested.

I'd like the deflect rules to be more streamline'd too, and Hark will probably end up trying to tank hits for other people, considering form III and his personality.

Tanking hits for other people! Good thing to bring up, thank you. I am going to try to come up with some sort of simple, generalized "defense" rule that will cover all those options: deflection, defensive posture, and protection.

If there's a specific skill (like the artistry: [insert specifics here]) that's worth noting, players could probably list them beforehand in order to avoid any abuse of the system.

Agreed, that's something I was thinking about as well in this feedback discussion. It wouldn't be obligatory, but it could just be suggested that players list out their specialized areas when they submit their skill stats to the GM. I know that I personally would probably reward that attention to detail (and player willingness to realistically play within the limits of their character concept) by trying to dish out a little more bonus details or minor perks when giving those characters the results of their rolls.

Of course, there's also nothing wrong with the idea of a character who is supposed to have wide, generalized knowledge, if that's the character concept. So yeah, not obligatory, but a nice bit of color if people want to add it.

I think it's time to put the nose to the grindstone now, take all this feedback, and do a revisions pass. To work I go!
« Last Edit: 07/31/16, 01:13:15 PM by Niarra »
Niarra Reymark, Jedi Master and Diplomat // Derrad Reymark, Starfighter Ace and Softie // Jheva, Padawan and Pattern Reader // Yatei, Jedi Knight // Zelek Arr, Corn Grower
Sivala, Sith Academy Overseer // Rannayel, Sith Lord and Museum Curator
Erran Veshkgalaar, Mandalorian Accountant // Caustrin Neyvor, Dangerous Puppeteer // Ariza Fey, Psycho and Pyro // Kettur Vaen, Semi-Spook

Offline Noth

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Re: RP System (Under 100) - Looking for Feedback
« Reply #20 on: 07/31/16, 01:18:49 PM »
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Just a thought, but what about just adding a Stealth skill? Instead of doing the 'substitute these skills for these ones' you could set up the character creation something like this:

"All characters must have these skills by default:

Melee Agile
Melee Brawn
Perception
Social

If you are a Force-user your 5th default skill must be Force. If you are a non-Force-user your 5th default skill must be Gadgetry.

You must then select any three/four (depending on if you bump it up to 9 total) of the following skills:

Ranged
Technical
Vehicles
Medicine
Underworld
Artistry
Naturist
Historian
Stealth"

Then you could use the melee skills (or Force, or any other relevant skill depending on what the defense roll is) if people decide to do defense instead of adding a whole new mechanic for that. Alternatively, you could just disallow defense rolls. Say that you have to use Shien if you want to block blaster bolts or heal damage instead of guard it. That's a bit counterintuitive in the middle of RP though, since players may not always remember that and do story inspired options anyway.

Alternate Alternate: Instead of Melee Brawn and Melee Agile you could just change them to Brawn and Agility, since Brawn already covers feats of strength, Agility could cover feats of agility and stealth! You could also use Agility for disarming, or whatever skill is most relevant to the method of disarming. That way, the system stays pretty much as you envisioned it but becomes more expansive just internally.
« Last Edit: 07/31/16, 01:25:50 PM by Noth »
The Jedi: Bren (Archaeologist), Iirim (Healer), Zorru (Recruiter), Orans (Master), Aybekk (Padawan)
The Politicians: Varooth (Senator), Seirion (Aide/Spy), Ayrak (King)
The Mandos: Urziya (Rallymaster), Terr (Chieftain)
The Outlaws: Telen (Slicer), Majia (Pirate/Smuggler)
The Imperials: Athuuna (Agent), Zhekrazh (Lord), Z'ridia (Apprentice)

Offline Niarra

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Re: RP System (Under 100) - Looking for Feedback
« Reply #21 on: 07/31/16, 01:37:34 PM »
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I like your suggestions, Noth. I think that changing the way the skill selection is presented is a good idea. The original concept was that there would be fewer "alternate" skills so it made more sense to think of them as substitutions, but the way it's evolved I think presenting it more like a list that you can pick from does make more sense.

I am beginning to come around to the idea of making Stealth a separate skill as well. I think that will depend on the results of my math experiments as I work on refining the Allocation arrays. If 9 skills seem feasible with the number crunching, Stealth as a separate category would work. That way it would become a much more specialized skill, and you could also color it any way you wanted (my character does this with dexterity/the Force/a stealth field generator).

For deflection/defense/disarming/protecting, I'm leaning toward creating a very short list of "combat actions." You would still just be using the relevant skill group, and it would still just be a matter of rolling under your threshold to succeed; the only added rule would be that when you are about to roll for a combat action, you declare which action you are rolling for: attack, self-defense, defense of others, or a disarming attempt.

Attack is obvious. For self-defense or defense of others, a success would just mean that you negate the next point of damage that would have been inflicted on you or others respectively.

For disarming, I still think this has to be an opposed check, and I am leaning toward the idea of it just being a matter of opposing the roll of whichever skill the attacker is using against a roll of the defender's best combat skill - on the idea that you will be using the techniques of your preferred combat style to defend, whether that's colored as parrying an attack, using brute strength to maintain a hold on your weapon, or using a gunfighter's reflexes to nimbly avoid the attempt.

I also think that's the only way to make it fair, with an eye to the enjoyment/experience of all players involved. If non-dexterous characters had to rely on Melee Agile to avoid being disarmed they would forever be at a severe disadvantage. And while that may be true to "reality," it's not as much fun for a player.
Niarra Reymark, Jedi Master and Diplomat // Derrad Reymark, Starfighter Ace and Softie // Jheva, Padawan and Pattern Reader // Yatei, Jedi Knight // Zelek Arr, Corn Grower
Sivala, Sith Academy Overseer // Rannayel, Sith Lord and Museum Curator
Erran Veshkgalaar, Mandalorian Accountant // Caustrin Neyvor, Dangerous Puppeteer // Ariza Fey, Psycho and Pyro // Kettur Vaen, Semi-Spook

Offline Noth

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Re: RP System (Under 100) - Looking for Feedback
« Reply #22 on: 07/31/16, 01:49:24 PM »
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That sounds good to me! I can imagine how that would look in a combat situation, and it works out well, I think. It's simple and easy to remember. I agree that switching up the skill used based on just your main combat skill makes it much more fair.

You have a nice system here. :) Simple and flexible. Looking forward to the next test run. Good luck with the number crunching!
The Jedi: Bren (Archaeologist), Iirim (Healer), Zorru (Recruiter), Orans (Master), Aybekk (Padawan)
The Politicians: Varooth (Senator), Seirion (Aide/Spy), Ayrak (King)
The Mandos: Urziya (Rallymaster), Terr (Chieftain)
The Outlaws: Telen (Slicer), Majia (Pirate/Smuggler)
The Imperials: Athuuna (Agent), Zhekrazh (Lord), Z'ridia (Apprentice)

Offline Niarra

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Re: RP System (Under 100) - Looking for Feedback
« Reply #23 on: 08/07/16, 08:43:49 PM »
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I finally sat down and worked out the updates to the Under 100 system based on feedback from the first play test. I've now updated the core post. Below are the following changes (hopefully I remember them all) made today:

  • Expanded the number of skill groups a player can choose to 9 (up from 8).
  • Added Stealth as a new, unique skill group.
  • Changed the instructions on how to select skill groups. Instead of "substituting" some skills for optional ones, players take their 5 required skill groups and pick freely from the options for the remaining 4.
  • Expanded the Skill Group Allocation arrays to allow for the increase to 9 skill groups.
  • Updated all of the existing Skill Group Allocation arrays to carve a little bit off both the high end and low end numbers, with the aim of creating less absolute guarantee on the high end and more chance for success on the low end. Some adjustments were made in the middle ranges as well, to even distribution out a bit.
  • Added two new Skill Group Allocation array options: Baseline (replacing the previous Standard as the purely sequential array, with Standard now offering a less extreme spread), and Median.
  • Added a section on Combat to clarify and provide examples.
  • Added rules for defensive actions in combat.
  • Added a rule for initiative.
  • Simplified the automatic success and skill boosting uses of Heroic Moment points, and added one additional use for a point (Heroic Sacrifice).
« Last Edit: 08/07/16, 09:28:01 PM by Niarra »
Niarra Reymark, Jedi Master and Diplomat // Derrad Reymark, Starfighter Ace and Softie // Jheva, Padawan and Pattern Reader // Yatei, Jedi Knight // Zelek Arr, Corn Grower
Sivala, Sith Academy Overseer // Rannayel, Sith Lord and Museum Curator
Erran Veshkgalaar, Mandalorian Accountant // Caustrin Neyvor, Dangerous Puppeteer // Ariza Fey, Psycho and Pyro // Kettur Vaen, Semi-Spook

Offline Niarra

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Re: RP System (Under 100) - Looking for Feedback
« Reply #24 on: 09/19/16, 05:54:46 PM »
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So, in my most recent event, folks who attended played a bit more with the Under 100 system, and as always it gave me great additional playtest data. It also highlighted one important area in which I think I need to make slight adjustments to the system: the use of the Force to manipulate minds.

(Note: If you attended the event in question I'm not saying anything anyone did was problematic! It was entertaining and invaluable data. The very fact that every PC at the event attempted to use the Force to affect someone's mind at some point in the evening made it very clear the system just needs to be prepared to deal with it in a fair and pre-defined way.)

I ran a Star Wars SAGA Edition tabletop campaign for many years, with multiple groups. And even when dealing with seasoned players who were mostly very strong RPers, it became immediately obvious that the temptation to abuse the Mind Trick power was too much for most people to resist. (Which, interestingly, I also think probably mirrors the "reality" of the SW universe, in which exercising restraint and responsibility with such a power probably takes enormous discipline, and could easily lead to gross abuse and corruption otherwise.) It also became immediately obvious how destabilizing the Mind Trick power could be, both regarding relationships between the PCs and regarding maintaining the structure of the plot the GM had planned.

The flip side, though, is that using the Force to affect minds is absolutely core to Star Wars lore, the realities of the Force, and pretty much every Star Wars story we've ever been given. So it definitely has a place, and as a Game Master I think a Mind Trick absolutely needs to work within the rules and framework of your adventure. But as a Game Master, it poses some unique challenges:

How do you still incorporate your standard Mind Trick (and every will-bending variation thereof), respecting the players' ability to realistically use it within the setting, without in so doing handing the players a tool that can completely destroy your planned adventure by subverting a NPC who should not be subvertible? After all, just because an antagonist or a villain is meant to be the PCs' opposition doesn't mean they should by default be weaker than the PCs, or weak-minded in general. In fact, antagonists as strong or stronger than the PCs are almost a prerequisite for creating a compelling challenge to be overcome.

In my tabletop campaigns, I ran into two specific problems around Mind Tricks, and I came up with two specific solutions for them. I think both also probably need to be addressed for the Under 100 system, and so I would like to present them here and get some feedback from anyone who might have some!

Mind Tricks on other Player Characters: In the tabletop game, some Force-using players just couldn't seem to resist trying to bend the minds of the non Force-using players when characters were in disagreement. My solution in that scenario was simple: I simply prohibited the use of the Mind Trick power on another Player Character, period. As a blanket rule, this worked great; everyone understood it was in the interest of fairness and though I occasionally had to remind folks, no one ever complained.
            For Under 100: I believe the same blanket rule could easily be applied. For one thing, in community RP god-modding is a no-no anyways, and that's about as god-modding as it gets.

Mind Tricks on Non Player Characters: In the tabletop game, because the rules set is so extensive, as a GM I was more limited to playing within those boundaries. So to still allow players the Star Wars thrill of Mind Tricking the occasional bad guy or stubborn security guard, I addressed the need to have antagonists who were not all weak-minded buffoons by pure GM work: i.e., I carefully built every significant NPC, within the rules, to have a mental defense score as high as the Empire State Building, and often included perks and powers that would make them immune to mind-affecting abilities altogether.
            For Under 100:  With the simplified rule set in the Under 100 system, I'm currently considering making the following small updates to the Enemy NPC Types rules:

  • Mooks: No change to base rules. They still cannot oppose checks, still treat all skills the GM needs them to use as having a universal skill threshold of 40. Addition for mind-affecting Force powers: Mooks would be completely susceptible to Mind Tricks (provided the person attempting the Mind Trick successfully makes their own Force use check).
  • Champions: No change to base rules. They can make opposed checks, and will still treat all skills the GM needs them to use as having a universal skill threshold of 60. Addition for mind-affecting Force powers: Champions can attempt to resist a mind-affecting use of the Force with an opposed check, using their universal threshold of 60 as their target. As with all opposed checks, to successfully resist they need to both roll under their own threshold, and also get a lower number than the opposing character's roll.
  • Bosses: No change to base rules. They should still be created as a Player Character would be, using the normal 9 skill groups and one of the 6 skill allocation arrays. Bosses can make opposed checks. Addition for mind-affecting Force powers: If the Boss is a Force-using character, resisting a mind-affecting Force power is an opposed check of Force skill vs Force skill, with all the normal rules for an opposed check. Now... the problem comes with Bosses who are not Force-users... which I will get into below...

Because my main goal with the Under 100 rules was to keep things simple and streamlined in the game play, I totally avoided anything like a bunch of static defense scores to juggle. But in their absence, there isn't an obvious Skill Group that can oppose a mind-affecting use of the Force if a character can't use the Force themselves. I don't want to create a new Skill Group just for that purpose, because that would disadvantage non Force-using characters (NPCs or PCs) who would be compelled to sacrifice a skill slot for this purely defensive ability.

The only possible solution I can think of at the moment would be to rule that Bosses (and also any PCs who might be subjected to a mind-affecting power a villain might be trying to use) who cannot use the Force would instead attempt to resist a mind-affecting power by making an opposed check using their second highest skill (regardless of what that skill might be) as their target threshold for the check. Looking at the skill allocation arrays, that means the lowest number that could possibly be would be a 70 (and could go as high as 90).

The rationale behind making it the second highest skill as opposed to the highest is just to reflect the idea that someone who hasn't dedicated themselves to honing their mind into a weapon (as Force-users do) has probably instead devoted their mental energies to other pursuits. They might be very strong-willed still, but if they've otherwise spent their whole lives mastering starship repair as their primary interest then it stands to reason a dedicated Force-user should probably have the edge on them in the arena of mental powers.

So... what do any players think? I'd love the feedback of anyone with two cents (and the fortitude to read through rules rambling obviously), regardless of whether or not you've been able to attend any of my events using this sytem.

(Side note: I am not considering using the Force to just read someone's thoughts or emotions as needing to be covered by the rules. For one thing, when trying to do that on another player character we all already have the power to reveal only what we want to reveal about our own characters. And the GM has the same discretionary power as regards revealing only what they want to reveal about a NPC's thoughts as well. I don't think the rules need to be bogged down with anything additional on that front.)

To close, just want to again thank everyone who has come out so far and agreed to be my guinea pigs. I've been really pleased to see that the system does seem to play out as smoothly as I'd hoped it would; "harder to read than it is to use" was my sales pitch all along, and so far I'm comfortable I haven't been a total liar!   :cheer:
Niarra Reymark, Jedi Master and Diplomat // Derrad Reymark, Starfighter Ace and Softie // Jheva, Padawan and Pattern Reader // Yatei, Jedi Knight // Zelek Arr, Corn Grower
Sivala, Sith Academy Overseer // Rannayel, Sith Lord and Museum Curator
Erran Veshkgalaar, Mandalorian Accountant // Caustrin Neyvor, Dangerous Puppeteer // Ariza Fey, Psycho and Pyro // Kettur Vaen, Semi-Spook

Offline Niarra

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Re: RP System (Under 100) - Looking for Feedback
« Reply #25 on: 04/15/17, 04:10:37 PM »
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I would like to get some feedback from the folks who've played with the system, about a couple revisions I'm considering adding.

I've now had a chance to see more people make character stats, and seen the system in action in more scenarios. I feel that the mechanics of the system work well, and the changes I'm considering merely expand skill choices just a little bit, while leaving everything else intact. So I'll mention here the changes I'm considering, and then ask for input on each one.


1.  Making Lightsabers a unique combat skill. Right now this falls under Melee Agile, which was a decision I made for the sake of keeping things simple. But I eventually broke Stealth out and think that works, and more importantly it has occurred to me that by rolling lightsaber combat into Melee Agile but making Ranged a separate combat skill, it actually disadvantages non Force-using characters in terms of the number of extra skills they can pick.
       Pros: Equalizes number of extra skills available between Force-using and non Force-using classes.
       Cons: Are there any? Your feedback will help me determine this.

Thoughts? 


2. Increase number of selectable Skill Groups to 10 (up from 9). This change would only be considered if I do break Lightsabers out into a separate skill. Essentially, as it currently stands non Force-using characters generally have to devote one of their four extra skill selections to Ranged, leaving them with 3 free choices (as opposed to the 4 a lightsaber-wielder would get). What I'm asking myself now is if 3 free choices is actually sufficient, or if 4 is preferable in all circumstances.
       Pros: More flexibility in character stat design.
       Cons: It would increase the number of skills involved in making a character from 9 to 10 (as well as increasing the Allocation arrays to 10 numbers). With simplicity as the chief goal, the more numbers you juggle the more complex things get.

Thoughts? Is the con not really a con? Are people happy with just 3 free skill choices, or would 4 be preferable?


3.Updating Skill Group Allocations. The goal with the spectrum of numbers here was to prevent the creation of an uber character who would be superior at absolutely everything. However, in practice I'm seeing that having numbers down in the 20 and 30 range makes those skills extremely unreliable. So, especially if I'm going to add a new Lightsabers skill, I want to make sure the lower end numbers make sense. I'll be upfront and say that as the system designer I hesitate to let the lower end numbers rise any higher than 40 (especially with the HM point option on a guaranteed success if you really want it), but I'd still like to hear feedback of all stripes.
       Pros: Makes all skill selections at least moderately feasible.
       Cons: Runs the risk of overpowering characters if not carefully balanced.

Thoughts? What feels like the best lower end threshold to you? Would decreasing the higher end and increasing the lower end work better (resulting in all arrays being geared more toward a median)?
« Last Edit: 04/15/17, 05:58:16 PM by Niarra »
Niarra Reymark, Jedi Master and Diplomat // Derrad Reymark, Starfighter Ace and Softie // Jheva, Padawan and Pattern Reader // Yatei, Jedi Knight // Zelek Arr, Corn Grower
Sivala, Sith Academy Overseer // Rannayel, Sith Lord and Museum Curator
Erran Veshkgalaar, Mandalorian Accountant // Caustrin Neyvor, Dangerous Puppeteer // Ariza Fey, Psycho and Pyro // Kettur Vaen, Semi-Spook

Offline Noth

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Re: RP System (Under 100) - Looking for Feedback
« Reply #26 on: 04/16/17, 04:41:32 PM »
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I like the idea of making lightsabers their own skill a lot, but only if the combat skill choice then becomes "Pick two out of Melee Agile, Melee Brawn, Ranged, and Lightsaber". It balances out the stats a bit because then you have to think about what sort of combatant your character will be: Super-Consular Bren, for example, might sink points into Lightsaber and Ranged for Throw Saber but have no real skill at brawling; Iirim the Mando-at-heart OTOH would have Lightsaber and Melee Agile since he supplements dueling with unarmed skill.

The one drawback I see then would be it doesn't cover feats of non-combat strength. So, say, Bren, despite being this towering mountain Zabrak, would have no way to do something like lift up a heavy stone unless he uses the Force. People who don't have a Force skill would be even less lucky. At the risk of making it too complicated, would adding a weight class to the character sheet cover that? Or would you prefer to leave that an RP choice for the GM to make if the character can perform non-combat feats of strength?

I like the proposed changes to skill group allocation. I don't feel like chance to be OP in certain skills is all that bad in the Star Wars setting, since you've got characters who can use the Force or have magic-like technology anyway.

Edit: I know this wasn't asked, but something else I thought of was that I feel like Social as a skill might be a good one to move to the optional selections. Not everyone needs to be persuasive or diplomatic, and I'm not sure I can think of a situation when I've been around for the Under 100 system when someone has actually used the Social skill... I could be remembering wrong though. You could move Perception to the 'non-optional' section along with Force and Gadgetry and then have people pick two Combat skills.

These are all just ideas of course!
« Last Edit: 04/16/17, 04:47:49 PM by Noth »
The Jedi: Bren (Archaeologist), Iirim (Healer), Zorru (Recruiter), Orans (Master), Aybekk (Padawan)
The Politicians: Varooth (Senator), Seirion (Aide/Spy), Ayrak (King)
The Mandos: Urziya (Rallymaster), Terr (Chieftain)
The Outlaws: Telen (Slicer), Majia (Pirate/Smuggler)
The Imperials: Athuuna (Agent), Zhekrazh (Lord), Z'ridia (Apprentice)

Offline Niarra

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Re: RP System (Under 100) - Looking for Feedback
« Reply #27 on: 04/16/17, 10:23:11 PM »
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Thanks for your feedback, Noth!

In the event I make Lightsabers its own skill, Melee Agile and Melee Brawn would become simply Agility and Brawn. They would still be required skills, because it's important that everyone has a readily available stat to reference when a need to lift a rock or walk a beam comes into play.

In the event of this change, the description of the Agility and Brawn skills (and examples of what they govern) would be changed to:

Skill Group                Governs
Agility Acrobatic or dexterous actions, sleight of hand, and combat with light melee weapons other than lightsabers.
BrawnFeats of strength or endurance, and hand to hand combat.

So the four required groups would remain the same, and Lightsabers would just join Ranged as an optional group to pick.

The reason I want to leave Social in there is just because almost everyone at some point or other talks to people. As much as possible I like to leave dialogue and its results up to the quality of the RP, but in the event of something like a skills challenge, or if I'm trying to determine how much of a boost you might give to your RP dialogue as regards influencing someone with your charisma or silver tongue, then you need everyone to have a threshold to roll against. (And we did use Social in the Eriadu portion of one of the previous events, and I can pretty much promise you'll see it again in the next one.)

The same logic applies to Perception, in that everyone is aware of their surroundings. Some people might be more perceptive than others, but if you're trying to determine who spots the enemy sneaking up on you, you need every character to have a threshold available to roll against.

Based on your general feedback it sounds to me like you think ten skills to juggle (as opposed to nine) is not too much, correct?

And it sounds like you're agreeing that the lower end of the allocation arrays could do with bumping up?

And as a P.S. - I don't want to make things too complicated by splitting combat across multiple skill groups. Whether you're throwing a lightsaber or wielding it melee, it would all be governed by simply the Lightsabers skill. I want people to color things however they wish, just need a skill bucket to drop it into.
Niarra Reymark, Jedi Master and Diplomat // Derrad Reymark, Starfighter Ace and Softie // Jheva, Padawan and Pattern Reader // Yatei, Jedi Knight // Zelek Arr, Corn Grower
Sivala, Sith Academy Overseer // Rannayel, Sith Lord and Museum Curator
Erran Veshkgalaar, Mandalorian Accountant // Caustrin Neyvor, Dangerous Puppeteer // Ariza Fey, Psycho and Pyro // Kettur Vaen, Semi-Spook

Offline Noth

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Re: RP System (Under 100) - Looking for Feedback
« Reply #28 on: 04/16/17, 11:13:40 PM »
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Based on your general feedback it sounds to me like you think ten skills to juggle (as opposed to nine) is not too much, correct?

And it sounds like you're agreeing that the lower end of the allocation arrays could do with bumping up?

Yes to both of those! And that all makes sense. Like I said, it's just a suggestion, and your solution already sounds really good.

For the allocation arrays being bumped up, would that mean there would be fewer allocation templates? I imagine with them bumped up there would be less variety in the numbers available to spread across skills.
The Jedi: Bren (Archaeologist), Iirim (Healer), Zorru (Recruiter), Orans (Master), Aybekk (Padawan)
The Politicians: Varooth (Senator), Seirion (Aide/Spy), Ayrak (King)
The Mandos: Urziya (Rallymaster), Terr (Chieftain)
The Outlaws: Telen (Slicer), Majia (Pirate/Smuggler)
The Imperials: Athuuna (Agent), Zhekrazh (Lord), Z'ridia (Apprentice)

Offline Karmic

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Re: RP System (Under 100) - Looking for Feedback
« Reply #29 on: 04/17/17, 01:59:59 PM »
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My own thoughts- keeping in mind I'm the "total newb this is a learning disability as I can't seem to really grasp table top rolling mechanics..." (even after 20 years of playing off and on LOL).

I do like your system - it is simple (and for me too!) for the most part to figure out where your character falls with what aspects they are using or what strengths/weaknesses they have. 

The only thoughts/confusions/questions I had when I made Karmic some stats and reading through your adjustment ideas.

1-10 isn't any more difficult a number of skills to balance as 9 is.  So I wouldn't worry about that.

2-Where I struggled was in having to have 10, I was picking things that while Karmic IS trained/good at - it felt really *wrong* for me to be putting Artistry at 20 or 30 only because XYZ number in four slots was my only option.

I don't know if that's just limitations of any rolling system.  But my issue set in only because of all those little story character quirks and trying to "put them into hard numbers" - and I realize that.  You can't be 100 in Lightsaber and 100 in the Force and 100 in Artistry - even if your character learned how to sing for a decade or more before she ever went to Korriban and it just happens to be a little known "fact" among a few people that Karmic can actually ...SING.

It would only come in an event about talents or performing or dealing with snobbish artsy types and of course, as in your event, happen to be a painting about a famous Opera (Karmic rolls to decide whether to outbid the museum...xD).  It would never really come up in a fighting situation, obviously :).

So they are parts of her Character Stat Sheet, but entirely different "pools" of skills I'd guess you say?

So that when I have to distribute points across 10 variables - some of which will be relevant, some not (to a particular event) - I feel like I'm not representing my character profile accurately because I'm having to put the 20 at Artistry to get a 60 in Social, when I feel both of them would be higher than that even if none of them as high as Melee/Force at 90 (or whatever numbers).

Or perhaps I'm missing the point myself in the whole system! Entirely possible X :grin:  I'm use to Perma-Character-Stats covering the life of your character (whether you add to it or not).

Would this be a stat system you also could expect to change given what the situation was as the players knew it?  As in "Yea its a fighting event so the system forces that Social to be 20 - but if this was a party the social woudl be 80 and the Force would be 20..."?

*Hopes she's making sense!* 

I realize there has to be a trade off; I guess my thought in the "Doing 10 Skills instead of 9" is you're forcing another skill to be dropped to the bottom for that trade off - if a Strong Force Lightsaber fighter (who is also a lady's party man) has to play the odds on what it would be more helpful to put the higher end numbers in. =D

~~~

Along that theme but entirely different point of confusion for me.  THis one has to do with combat and how all the stats influence each other.  I realize the "main four" (or perhaps now five) up top are the "biggest contributor" to a fight scene (*or maybe not?).

But as a Stealth Assassin FOrce Melee Character - the Stealth, Perception, Force abilities being setup as they were made me really wonder "Which is the chicken and which is the egg?"

Perhaps this is a problem unique to the more sneaky force users - or perhaps any strong force using melee fighter would run into this issue as well - in that "Perception" and "Force" for a force user are often times tightly emeshed.

And maybe in your system explanation you covered this but as I have some type of LD when it comes to these systems I honestly couldn't figure it out - and we never actually fought in the event for me to ask!  :aww: :grin: (lol)

As a Stealth Assassin Force Melee Character - I use the FOrce in every part of what Karmic does.  As she's fighting, she's using the Force.  As she's stealthing, she's using the Force.  As she's looking around and listening and sensing for danger - she's using the Force (Perception).  All of that depends on her strength in the Force.

(making up stats for ease of concept-)

If I have:

Force 100
Perception 80
Stealth 70
LIghtsaber 60

What stats are effecting what abilities when?  Just stealthing through a hallway is a Roll on what?  Force or Stealth?  If I stealth through a hallway I'm also at the same time force sensing ahead for danger - am I rolling on FOrce, Stealth, Perception? Two out of the three?

Is it the one that is the "most overarching" In this case it would all Roll under Force?  Negating the need for Stealth/Perception to even be in a Force Users's stat pick?

Your question about Adding Lightsaber and wondering about dividing up big categories into more and more specific categories reminded me of this "question" that popped into my head when I was looking at the system and trying to figure out what number category to use - and how it "worked."

To know which of the two or three numbers is more influential when now adding Lightsaber to the mix with the other melee/fight skill choices. 

Not saying Lightsaber isn't a great addition - or that going to less stat categories is the way to go.  Just knowing my own issues when making a character - as someone who does take a good amount of time to consider it first :) -

 I'd be wondering if I threw in a lightsaber attack when I popped out of stealth behind an enemy  (a basic karmic opener); other systems only had me rolling once - succeed or fail at any of it, I post the result.

With your system I don't know which part of numbers would play into my roll - rolling stealth?Lightsaber?FOrce (as Force was used in the entire execution of it) and a 100 is a huge difference to 60 based on the skills listed above.  The flip side of that is then frontloading the number picks again because I know "this is the only factor in my XYZ fighting style so this is the only number that matters..."

Hope its helpful... if nothing else, helping the explanation part to make it clearer.   :umm:

~~

This is more a matter of style I think than any "rule system" but some of the event coordinators around here have started allowing us to ROLL FIRST before Rping out the first part of any action that requires a roll and then writing the whole thing out knowing the ending. 

Rather than the "regular" way of posting your initial action/attack - rolling - and then finding out if you succeeded or not.

One you may want to consider - or throw in if you're running shorter on time. :).

Pros:
It does make action happen faster.  People can already have in mind what they will do if they succeed/fail what they are planning so when its their turn to roll they can just ROLL - and then post.  ROLL - post response.  Instead of coming up with their great opener, end up crit failing, and then having to come up with a way to make something fail that respects the numbers while also respecting the character and goal of the event.  Its that "answer after the roll" that tends to take people the longest to come up with - IMO - then when we utilize this type of roll/response pattern.

It allows people not to have to play their characters as failing idiots in order to be heros and villians =D.  It entirely gets rid of the great setup - only to crit a 1 on the roll and having to come up with a way you couldn't pull off that utterly simple, if cool, thing.  Like failing to use the force to break a piece of wood, or sense if there are people in a room, or hitting a tree with your lightsaber  :grin:.  Perhaps this is something noted only by the /rng cursed like myself, but having spent hours at events thinking up great, if simple, ways to use the force or stealth only to fail (sometimes literally) and have to fall flat on Karmic's face because its the only logical thing that would happen if that XYZ move failed.  Great fun RP setups I would have saved for a /success if I had only knew it ahead of time. 

I remember one event I literally failed every roll for about an hour which meant I wasn't able to sense soldiers I could visibly see across a bridge, I wasnt' able to stealth under a pile of hay or something in a wagon, and at one point - ended up dunked over the bridge and came out soaking wet - because of failed attack roles that shouldn't have been able to fail.  Hilarious but yet highly embarrassing and certainly not Darth=like xD.

Cons:
Honestly I dont know them. Everytime I've been at a chatroom event and the GM used this, I don't remember anyone saying they liked the other way better.  The only change is rolling first and then posting the action/result together.  Not "Post Action" "Roll"  "Post Result." You might think people wouldn't do things they fail at ahead of time but I've not found that to be the case in the live RP.

~~
Along those lines - quick suggestion:

Failsafe roll rule please! Us /rng cursed always appreciate some rule that if we fail 3 or 4 rolls in a row we can get a success in there somewhere.  Stell put this into her system after I had some ungodly number of roll fails (RNG curse is Legend....ary..) and it just makes everyone so happy to know that even if they facepalm it again and again - something is going to be a successful roll!  :aww:

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