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Author Topic: Hierarchy and Organization in the Sith Empire?  (Read 1280 times)

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Offline Mei

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Re: Hierarchy and Organization in the Sith Empire?
« Reply #15 on: 05/12/17, 07:15:09 PM »
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I love this thread, and I love lore because I'm crazy about having as accurate information as possible. So thanks for alllllll of your input!
Sometimes I get creative: Story Collection || Artwork Collection




Offline TrickyNick87

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Re: Hierarchy and Organization in the Sith Empire?
« Reply #16 on: 05/12/17, 07:23:31 PM »
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From digging it looks like Imperial military intelligence might be the equivalent to the Naval intelligence LVT linked in this time period. So that leaves four branches of Sith Intelligence that would deal with the different spheres of operations (Operations), propaganda (Outreach), technology (Experimental Weapons), and the military (Military Intelligence). Plus, the Spheres might also offer a group specifically dealing with Sith intelligence through the Sphere of Mysteries. Sound about right?

@Noth , military intelligence, used in this context, is just a general term to describe the intelligence activities, personnel, etc. of the Imperial military. This would encompass intelligence staff of both the Imperial Army and Navy (IRL, I served for seven years as a U.S. Army intelligence analyst. I was a military intelligence professional. We are unaffiliated with organizations like the CIA and conduct intelligence collection and analysis activities to support our unit commanders). Military intelligence personnel fall under the control of the War Ministry, not Sith Intelligence.

The Sphere of Mysteries presumably no longer exists. Charles Boyd suggested cryptically in a Bioware Livestream that the Dark Council was not reassembled since KotFE so all those spheres are gone. In any case, intelligence activities didn't fall within their purview anyway.

One thing I failed to mention: despite Sith Intelligence existing to handle the espionage affairs of the Sith Empire and military intelligence existing to provide combat intelligence to military commanders, we also know it is common for Sith lords to establish their own, informal network of spies. Darth Baras' network is the best example of this.

Offline Noth

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Re: Hierarchy and Organization in the Sith Empire?
« Reply #17 on: 05/12/17, 07:26:00 PM »
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From digging it looks like Imperial military intelligence might be the equivalent to the Naval intelligence LVT linked in this time period. So that leaves four branches of Sith Intelligence that would deal with the different spheres of operations (Operations), propaganda (Outreach), technology (Experimental Weapons), and the military (Military Intelligence). Plus, the Spheres might also offer a group specifically dealing with Sith intelligence through the Sphere of Mysteries. Sound about right?

@Noth , military intelligence, used in this context, is just a general term to describe the intelligence activities, personnel, etc. of the Imperial military. This would encompass intelligence staff of both the Imperial Army and Navy (IRL, I served for seven years as a U.S. Army intelligence analyst. I was a military intelligence professional. We are unaffiliated with organizations like the CIA and conduct intelligence collection and analysis activities to support our unit commanders). Military intelligence personnel fall under the control of the War Ministry, not Sith Intelligence.

The Sphere of Mysteries presumably no longer exists. Charles Boyd suggested cryptically in a Bioware Livestream that the Dark Council was not reassembled since KotFE so all those spheres are gone. In any case, intelligence activities didn't fall within their purview anyway.

One thing I failed to mention: despite Sith Intelligence existing to handle the espionage affairs of the Sith Empire and military intelligence existing to provide combat intelligence to military commanders, we also know it is common for Sith lords to establish their own, informal network of spies. Darth Baras' network is the best example of this.
Good to know, thank you for the clarification!

So, given the restructure under the Sith, does that mean Sith who would previously be under those spheres are now part of Sith Intelligence? (Or at least involved with it?)
The Jedi: Bren (Archaeologist), Iirim (Healer), Zorru (Recruiter), Orans (Master), Aybekk (Padawan)
The Politicians: Varooth (Senator), Seirion (Aide/Spy), Ayrak (King)
The Mandos: Urziya (Rallymaster), Terr (Chieftain)
The Outlaws: Telen (Slicer), Majia (Pirate/Smuggler)
The Imperials: Athuuna (Agent), Zhekrazh (Lord), Z'ridia (Apprentice)

Offline TrickyNick87

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Re: Hierarchy and Organization in the Sith Empire?
« Reply #18 on: 05/12/17, 07:33:12 PM »
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If a Sith wasn't directly involved with Sith Intelligence prior to the restructuring I see no reason to expect why they would now be associated with the organization. But who knows?

Offline LVT

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Re: Hierarchy and Organization in the Sith Empire?
« Reply #19 on: 05/12/17, 07:41:50 PM »
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It's because third act of the agent story and the Empire losing faith in the original organization.
Turari (29, Major, jr. grade CEDF)     Silivia Fenir (21, Freighter Captain)
Lashila Sellara (25, Grey Sith)         Harkasone Milan (29, Philanthropist)
Reill Farr(31, Silent Mandalorian)     Mystenin Felsa (26, 'Green' Jedi)
Touko Saizar(19, Turari's underling) Temple Guard #124(35, Pro Spook)
                                                    Freya Merril (?, ???)

Offline Iaera

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Re: Hierarchy and Organization in the Sith Empire?
« Reply #20 on: 05/12/17, 08:02:49 PM »
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Something to bear in mind when discussing power structures in dysfunctional evil empires in general: Link

Now with that said, on the topic of where soldiers get their orders and who they're beholden to -- I've always treated the situation kind of like Republican Rome. Nominally, all soldiers of course serve the state, whether they be citizen-soldiers or non-citizen auxilia (in this case, subjugated people doing military service for perks, Chiss allies, etc). However, in practice, because of how decentralised power is in the Sith Empire, with huge amounts of power wielded by Sith Lords who are reigned in only by other Sith Lords policing them, Sith practically function not unlike a Roman proconsul (he who rules in the consul's stead, i.e., a regional governor).

Because political leaders and military leaders were one and the same in Republican Rome, governors, consuls, senators, tribunes and others also found themselves leading legions against Rome's enemies... and, of course, against each other on a regular basis. Soldiers were thus loyal to the idea of Rome, but also to their actual commander, which is one of the reasons Rome had so many civil wars. Of course, these famously culminated in Gaius Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon with his loyal men, fighting against several other legions loyal to other members of the Senate.

This, I think, forms a model for how soldiers in the Sith Empire likely behave... loyal, to a point, to the state itself, but in most cases ultimately loyal to their Sith master. Of course there are also probably exceptions and plenty of soldiers dedicated to some other philosophical concept (Imperialism? Wise and just governance of the Empire's citizens? Etc), and it's critical to bear in mind the video I posted above. But a great deal of soldiers likely owe their loyalty to the Sith Lord who runs their lives, assuming that Sith is at least moderately competent in instilling loyalty in his or her minions.
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Offline Karmic

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Re: Hierarchy and Organization in the Sith Empire?
« Reply #21 on: 05/12/17, 08:17:13 PM »
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If a Sith wasn't directly involved with Sith Intelligence prior to the restructuring I see no reason to expect why they would now be associated with the organization. But who knows?

Because there is no Sphere of Mysteries?

Hence why I figured she'd NOW fall under Sith INtelligence.  And yes its not because she has to, its because she chooses to.  That's how she sees her "duty to the Empire" fulfilled is to take on such missions (or be apart of a group like Moirae or yours for example...) but she knows she's not forced to.

And yea I knew pre-KOTET that it was Sphere of Mysteries (or remember someone also saying that back then..and I'd forgotten the term..).  But since that doesn't apply anymore - I was thinking "Ministry of Intelligence" is an easy way to explain what she does.  Because the question is often asked... LOL.

But yea its not that she is dispatched by them as in "ordered."  More as in, "We know this is your area and you said you'd offer your services for the Empire.." sort of exchange :). 

And since she does enjoy that sort of work - yes, as a Darth, she still assassinates.  Much less often of course than when she was younger - but she has continued to serve the Empire.  As she always has. 

She doesn't want to give it to a lesser; they are lesser.  They might not do it right.  :evil:


History Posts:  Her Backstory , Darth-Hood

Offline Noth

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Re: Hierarchy and Organization in the Sith Empire?
« Reply #22 on: 05/12/17, 09:12:50 PM »
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Something to bear in mind when discussing power structures in dysfunctional evil empires in general: Link

Now with that said, on the topic of where soldiers get their orders and who they're beholden to -- I've always treated the situation kind of like Republican Rome. Nominally, all soldiers of course serve the state, whether they be citizen-soldiers or non-citizen auxilia (in this case, subjugated people doing military service for perks, Chiss allies, etc). However, in practice, because of how decentralised power is in the Sith Empire, with huge amounts of power wielded by Sith Lords who are reigned in only by other Sith Lords policing them, Sith practically function not unlike a Roman proconsul (he who rules in the consul's stead, i.e., a regional governor).

Because political leaders and military leaders were one and the same in Republican Rome, governors, consuls, senators, tribunes and others also found themselves leading legions against Rome's enemies... and, of course, against each other on a regular basis. Soldiers were thus loyal to the idea of Rome, but also to their actual commander, which is one of the reasons Rome had so many civil wars. Of course, these famously culminated in Gaius Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon with his loyal men, fighting against several other legions loyal to other members of the Senate.

This, I think, forms a model for how soldiers in the Sith Empire likely behave... loyal, to a point, to the state itself, but in most cases ultimately loyal to their Sith master. Of course there are also probably exceptions and plenty of soldiers dedicated to some other philosophical concept (Imperialism? Wise and just governance of the Empire's citizens? Etc), and it's critical to bear in mind the video I posted above. But a great deal of soldiers likely owe their loyalty to the Sith Lord who runs their lives, assuming that Sith is at least moderately competent in instilling loyalty in his or her minions.

This is a great way to think about it, great comparison.

I'm still not really clear on the 'independent Sith' thing. I thought you were either a Lord or an Apprentice... Can anyone clarify for sure about that?
The Jedi: Bren (Archaeologist), Iirim (Healer), Zorru (Recruiter), Orans (Master), Aybekk (Padawan)
The Politicians: Varooth (Senator), Seirion (Aide/Spy), Ayrak (King)
The Mandos: Urziya (Rallymaster), Terr (Chieftain)
The Outlaws: Telen (Slicer), Majia (Pirate/Smuggler)
The Imperials: Athuuna (Agent), Zhekrazh (Lord), Z'ridia (Apprentice)

Online SquigglyV

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Re: Hierarchy and Organization in the Sith Empire?
« Reply #23 on: 05/13/17, 08:52:18 AM »
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I don't know if it has happened in-game, but you definitely don't automatically become a Lord if you somehow lose your master unless you've completed all your trials. You would probably get picked up by a new Lord but if you ran away and tried to escape the bureaucracy, it could be a thing.

Wookieepedia says one showed up in the SWTOR book Deceived on the Sith Warrior page but doesn't cite any chapters or anything so idk. I have seen multiple people RP a Sith like that before if it matters, usually temporarily until another Lord picks them up though unless they go rogue.

Offline Karmic

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Re: Hierarchy and Organization in the Sith Empire?
« Reply #24 on: 05/13/17, 02:42:23 PM »
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I don't know if it has happened in-game, but you definitely don't automatically become a Lord if you somehow lose your master unless you've completed all your trials. You would probably get picked up by a new Lord but if you ran away and tried to escape the bureaucracy, it could be a thing.

Wookieepedia says one showed up in the SWTOR book Deceived on the Sith Warrior page but doesn't cite any chapters or anything so idk. I have seen multiple people RP a Sith like that before if it matters, usually temporarily until another Lord picks them up though unless they go rogue.

Well not everyone who RP's Master/Apprentice Rpers through actual "Trials."

I remember when discussing Karmic's Acesnsion (first to Lord and then to Darth) stuff with a variety of Sith Players to get ideas or any idea if there was "trials" (like Jedi) or "Official Way"  and there was never a"rule" like with Jedi.  Your Master could of course give you trials - but there were lots of other ideas/suggestions thrown around at the time - all of them being canon-friendly (as I was trying really hard not to just ignore it lol).  And of course the option of killing your Master - even though right now that's NOT the "norm" of how to rise (even if it seems to be more of an IC RP norm in people's backstories...).

So I think you have to have some sort of "independent rank" (so to speak) in Sith-Dom in order to BE "independent."  You're still Sith, you're still Imperial - but just how "much loyalty" that individual has to those things of course is what would determine if you're more "independent" Sith.

But you'd still have Lordship or Darthship - else I'm not sure how survival/RPable that would be.  Because if you have no rank you're constantly having issues with people trying/forcing you to Apprentice them in addition to the fact that most characters would Icily harrass you (at the least) about your non-existance/importance and never "get no respect...".

But you coudl of course be a Lord - in however backstory that happens.  And then as a Lord, be more "Independent" in how you choose to interpret your Imperial loyalty  :grin:

(At least to me that is how it might make the most sense without being too lore/Sith/canon breaking in uncomfortable ways...)


History Posts:  Her Backstory , Darth-Hood

Offline Noth

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Re: Hierarchy and Organization in the Sith Empire?
« Reply #25 on: 05/13/17, 05:13:53 PM »
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See, what I imagined when that came up was not like "your master dies and you go rogue" and more an intermediate rank. Sith who aren't apprentices, but are more like ... somewhere in between Apprentice and Darth, who had passed out of apprenticeship by virtue of being 'good enough' or passing trials, but didn't hold the political title and pull as a Lord. Sith who are masters of themselves but can be bossed around by ranking Sith as needed. For example, the Overseers, I remember reading that they are not all Lords. Or maybe certain Warriors and Inquisitors who serve the Empire as a whole, but have no powerbases themselves. Not rogue, more like footsoldiers. The Overseers seemed like this to me, and I'm sure there are other examples.
The Jedi: Bren (Archaeologist), Iirim (Healer), Zorru (Recruiter), Orans (Master), Aybekk (Padawan)
The Politicians: Varooth (Senator), Seirion (Aide/Spy), Ayrak (King)
The Mandos: Urziya (Rallymaster), Terr (Chieftain)
The Outlaws: Telen (Slicer), Majia (Pirate/Smuggler)
The Imperials: Athuuna (Agent), Zhekrazh (Lord), Z'ridia (Apprentice)

Online SquigglyV

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Re: Hierarchy and Organization in the Sith Empire?
« Reply #26 on: 05/13/17, 05:18:07 PM »
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In that case, Warriors and Marauders and Assassins and such are all titles that fit. They're pretty much like foot soldiers and don't have that much political power other than the usual by being Sith. Overseers sort of count because they aren't always Lords, but they're more like teachers that stay in the academies.

Offline Noth

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Re: Hierarchy and Organization in the Sith Empire?
« Reply #27 on: 05/13/17, 05:35:13 PM »
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In that case, Warriors and Marauders and Assassins and such are all titles that fit. They're pretty much like foot soldiers and don't have that much political power other than the usual by being Sith. Overseers sort of count because they aren't always Lords, but they're more like teachers that stay in the academies.
Did a quick check and it looks like Sorcerer can be added to that list as well. Synonymous with 'Sith magician/witch'.

I wonder how much of this is relevant in the post-KOTFE state of things, or if Sith are being appointed to Lords and Darths just to fill the vacant positions.
The Jedi: Bren (Archaeologist), Iirim (Healer), Zorru (Recruiter), Orans (Master), Aybekk (Padawan)
The Politicians: Varooth (Senator), Seirion (Aide/Spy), Ayrak (King)
The Mandos: Urziya (Rallymaster), Terr (Chieftain)
The Outlaws: Telen (Slicer), Majia (Pirate/Smuggler)
The Imperials: Athuuna (Agent), Zhekrazh (Lord), Z'ridia (Apprentice)