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Author Topic: the last jedi [spoiler city]  (Read 4044 times)

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Offline Iaera

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the last jedi [spoiler city]
« on: 12/15/17, 12:08:15 PM »
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the last jedi is out and about

this thread is now the ultimate spoiler in the universe. i suggest we use it.
(so if you don't want spoilers, leave now)


discuss, gentlebeings
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Offline LVT

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #1 on: 12/15/17, 02:08:32 PM »
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As I posted on twitter, I thought it was a good movie with more plot holes and writing issues than I can count on with one hand, and a some shaky editing at times.

7/11
Turari (29, Major, jr. grade CEDF)     Silivia Fenir (21, Freighter Captain)
Lashila Sellara (25, Grey Sith)         Harkasone Milan (29, Philanthropist)
Reill Farr(31, Silent Mandalorian)     Mystenin Felsa (26, 'Green' Jedi)
Touko Saizar(19, Turari's underling) Temple Guard #124(35, Pro Spook)
                                                    Freya Merril (?, ???)

Offline Iaera

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #2 on: 12/15/17, 03:32:31 PM »
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I have to admit, I'm... struggling with this movie. I've made no secret of my criticisms of The Force Awakens, but I felt that movie was mostly mediocre kitsch unworthy of much attention either way. Last Jedi is, for good or ill, something more significant.

I don't have a lot of kind things to say about it, but what I do want to say in its defense is at least it's art. It's interesting art. It tried some things. I think it mostly fell on its face trying those things, but at least it tried. I can't really begrudge Rian Johnson for that. But at this point I am 100% convinced that Disney throwing out Lucas' ideas and influence and going their own way has been a grievous (heyo) error.

In an attempt to collate and articulate my feelings, I'll bring it down to what I liked (The Good), what I didn't like (The Bad), and what was just unusual or different (The Ugly).

The Good

  • The first 30 minutes! The movie had me. TFA forgotten! Pew pew! Minor nitpicks, but those are minor nitpicks. The first part of the movie was great.
  • B-17 bomber thingies. Again, minor nitpicks but I liked the concept. Star Wars works well when it borrows from powerful real-world imagery and themes and puts its trademark spacepulp stamp on them.
  • Most of the characters. As with TFA, most of the new characters are pretty cool in my book. I liked the A-wing pilot! I wish we got more of her before they killed off half of the Resistance. And that shady slicer dude may be our new Boba Fett-type minor character who gets elevated to stardom in subsequent media.
  • Snoke's death... at least in concept, if not necessarily execution.
  • Poe being kind of a moron and getting shut down by Admiral-Doctor Sattler. I say kind of, because Adm-Dr Sattler was kind of being a moron too. But regardless, it gives some MUCH NEEDED depth to Poe.
  • The Kylo-Luke backstory stuff was interesting and well-presented.
  • Kylo's conflict and struggle. There's some details that I don't think quite work, but the concept is interesting.
  • Porgs not as bad as I feared.
  • Some little nitpicky details, but the spirit of this list is to not sweat the nitpicky stuff so I'm not going to list every little detail I liked here.

The Bad... hoo boy

  • After the first 30-40 minutes or so... ooof. An incoherent mess of noise, ADHD scene after ADHD scene of ever-escalating masturbatory nonsense. I like EXPLOZIONZ and LIGHTSABERZ more than most, but good lord. It was just gratuity, and only a couple of the scenes were even interesting gratuity. (I did like the visuals of Krayt Crait, but that's about it)

  • that leia scene wut

  • Of all the sci-fi worlds that have been imagined up, Star Wars is perhaps the best one to have a literal casino planet. But it didn't work for Battlestar Galactica, and it still didn't work here. This is further exacerbated by the unnecessary, ham-fisted gobbledegook about arms dealers and war profiteering and also child slavery or something idk

  • To my immense surprise... I felt Rogue One got the Force right. Chirrut Imwe was... different, but good. Interesting. A sensible take on the Force. Vader was portrayed within reason. He was really, really powerful... in a small enclosed hallway against a handful of lightly-armed soldiers in a situation he could control and manipulate to his advantage. He felt real, boots still attached to Earth.

    Last Jedi, by contrast, seems to have taken its cues from Dragonball Z. Scene after scene after scene of psychic wizardry just spewing all over the screen. And people complain about midichlorians taking the mystique out of the Force? This movie embodies one of the worst sins of the fantasy genre: fantasy so fantastic that it is clearly not tethered to any notion of rules or reality, and simply exists for its own sake rather than serving any storytelling purpose. (I could also nitpick along similar lines about how Disney has been treating hyperdrives, but I'm trying to avoid the nitpicks here)

  • luke's 'death' wut. i guess he had to go now because his planet needed him?

  • Snoke. Wut. I thought, conceptually, his death at the hands of Kylo was interesting. But... wut? So is he Darth Plagueis, or...? Or he's just... some guy with ridiculous Sith powers and he's just been hanging out this whole time watching stuff? There is no purpose to this non-character, other than as a B-List Palpatine stand-in to be discarded when inconvenient to the jumbled plot.

  • yoda what the fuck i literally can't even. and apparently force ghosts can just sort of cast Call Lightning (a 3rd-level Druid spell!) whenever now, cf. above rant about fantasy and rules

  • rose 'saving' finn from independence daying himself. what the hell dude. one of my favourite lines in Revenge of the Sith deals with this exact situation, so my fears of prequel reactionaryism are being unpleasantly reinforced here. (though for a giant miniature death star i was... underwhelmed)

  • And most important, and perhaps most controversially... a severe, glaring lack of any real moral core to this story. I don't want to drag real-life and real-life politics into this any more than necessary, so all I'll say is that the events of the past year have completely and entirely annihilated all patience I used to have for muddy moral confusion, "shades of gray" characters and storytelling, and this undying fascination that seems to exist for stories where the good guys just aren't very good. There's enough of that in real life right now, thanks. There's a right way to do it (Game of Thrones, though I think GRR Martin gets a little too enamored with his fixation upon flawed people), but it absolutely does not need to infect every other story and franchise in existence, least of all Star Wars of all things.

    No one in this movie ever really exhibits anything in the way of real moral character, with the possible exception of my boi Finn (he starts the movie with some very understandable cowardice, and by the end is willing to die for what he believes is right). Luke just cynically wanders around as some jaded ex-Jedi, which is admittedly better than what I feared (though not by much). Yoda was... I don't even. What. The Yoda I remember talked about being at peace and not using aggression and stuff. Not casting lightning spells on trees for fun and then telling people "yeah just burn it all down maaaaan, fuck the SYSTEM." And worst of all, Rey is just a child doing whatever she wants and getting away with it, rejecting Kylo's offer only out of some vague sense of undefined moral decency.

    The Jedi weren't and aren't perfect (which is an important point to explore more, I think), but all of this has, I guess, made me double down on why I like them so much. For all their faults... they represent real, codified goodness -- selflessness, altruism, service, humility, non-aggression, enlightenment, the search for knowledge, and much more. It feels increasingly like the Disney Sequel Trilogy only wants to borrow the name, that badge that says "GOOD GUY" on it, and proudly wear it for all to see without any of the attendant philosophy and ethics. I'm Rey, I'm a good guy! Why am I a good guy? Because I'm a JEDI, and Jedi are good guys, see? It's all very tautological.

    Why is Rey the hero, again? What has she done? She rescued BB-8 from a junk scavenger, that's about it. So far, the only reason she's the "hero" of the story is because we've been told this and are meant to accept it without question. I think this may be why I like Finn more... he has actual heroic qualities and non-heroic qualities, and in his journey the heroic ones have been winning out.

whew

The Ugly... oddball stuff that isn't necessarily good or bad, but is definitely interesting...

  • The humour. There's lots of people talking about this, it seems like! I first noticed this with The Force Awakens, especially Poe's line, "So who talks first? You talk first, I talk first?" which I thought was cool and funny and... almost Star Wars. Just too irreverent. It was Stargate humour. Which I love, but it's a little bit more irreverent than Star Wars humour. Not necessarily a bad thing, and I've taken it as more of a modernisation of the Star Wars style, which I'm not opposed to.

    Last Jedi is just an expansion of that. A huge expansion. The General Weasley joke in the beginning was especially brazen, and most of the rest of the jokes followed suit. The towel joke, the ironing joke, the Force meditation jab, and so on. Not bad, but definitely more reminiscent of Colonel O'Neill than Han & Leia.

  • i think i had more but i think i ran out of steam ranting about this movie so

 :wtf: what the hell did i just watch / 10
« Last Edit: 12/15/17, 03:36:24 PM by Iaera »
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Offline blingdenston

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #3 on: 12/15/17, 03:43:04 PM »
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I loved it, it's growing more and more in my brain as time goes on. Gonna read through Iaera's thoughts and then pour out my own.
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Offline Orell

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #4 on: 12/15/17, 05:17:17 PM »
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Just got back from seeing it and... well, it's better than Rogue One and Force Awakens, and overall pretty good!

The Good

1: I like that the whole "Last Jedi" stuff turned out to be the tease we all were kinda expecting. I like that Luke's super disillusioned with the Jedi way, throwing out those old platitudes about "oh, the Jedi are so hypocritical", and having the film dismiss them, not just with words, but with action.

And honestly, I like how they explained Luke's absence from the galaxy. Like Jolee Bindo, going off to the middle of nowhere to pout because of his failure... and it was a big one. For a moment, he was so afraid of Ben that he wanted to kill him, and that one moment was enough to destroy everything he built. It causes his actions to make sense.

2: Love Rose. I mean, her "one with nature" stuff is a little saccharine, and her and Finn knowing every single piece of Imperial tech got a little eyerolling, but just being this good, noble person willing to give her life for the cause, it makes sense.

3: I love that a lot of the Rebel plans failed so horribly. Granted, one of them made me cringe like crazy, but it was nice that they come up with a good, solid plan... and it just doesn't work.

4: Fun whiz-bang action is fun!

5: I love that they made Rey's parents... nobodies. Leaving aside my own penchant for characters with mundane parentage, it works for the story. Kylo Ren is basically Forcer-royalty, why wouldn't his competition be Forcer-peasant?

6: holy shit that lightspeed suicide run was goddamn gorgeous.

7: ...god damn, the film made me feel a little bad for a space Nazi, but god damn if like every single one of Hux's scenes him getting smacked around by a Sith. Effet feels for ya, man...

8: Hey, they gave Leia some Jedi-ing to do! I actually like that, sure, Hard Vacuum is the ultimate equalizer, but I'm pretty sure you can survive in a vacuum for 30 seconds or so, just moving herself through vacuum, it's no less outlandish than most prequel Force stuff.

9: I really liked that Luke's Phantom-duel with Kylo Ren was done with Anakin's lightsaber, and the green one from Jedi. A pretty clever subtle nod to the audience that Luke wasn't really there, since they had seen it torn in two like 45 minutes ago.

The Bad

1: Is Holdo a goddamn idiot? Don't get me wrong, she had a great plan! The big prize as the decoy, use cloaking devices on those shuttles to get the actual people to a hidden base where they can ride out the wave and gather an army to fight back.

But you have an officer in your army, one of the few of them left, known to be an impulsive hothead who is going to want to do *something* instead of just run away and hope... and you DON'T tell him the goddamn plan?! You know, so he stops causing problems, understands the "loose lips sink ships" problems that require secrecy and doesn't try a hail mary plan that might ruin your plan?!

I mean, fine, if Poe was just a common pilot, sure. But he's still a Captain, he's one of the few fighter pilots you have left, trust him a little bit!

2: Of course, that leaves aside the First Order's braindead military strategy. If Lien had been in Hux's place? He would've had his starfighters maintain patrols outside of the cruiser's weapon range, had other ships come into the area to hem the Cruisers in, just in case, and made sure to keep an eye on nearby planets. Contain the situation, man, don't just accept the hand the enemy's dealing you!

3: But really, the biggest flaw here is the same as the Force Awaken's biggest flaw, and it's one I doubt we'll see fixed anytime soon: There's just so little worldbuilding.

I mean, okay, we get the impression there's a lot of rich people selling military tech to both sides. Okay, makes sense, assholes can be assholes that way. And that Last Jedi wraps up, what, 3-4 days after Force Awakens ended, the lack of time for the characters to catch their breath means that they can fudge a lot of details.

But, what, did the Republic not have an army? Was there no COG plan in place in case the remnant of a faction that created planet-destroying weapons once happened to create another planet-destroy weapon?

I mean, not to bring real-world history into this, but we know that a nation doesn't utterly fall apart when their capitol is sacked/destroyed/turned into space dust... because it happened to the USA in the War of 1812, when it was about as old as the New Republic was, and it managed to recover just fine.

Now, of course Lucas went a bit overboard with the world building in the Prequels, but there was stuff to work with there. Details, concepts, while a lot of people don't like how the Jedi (or Anakin) fell, it handled the corruption of the Old Republic and it's transformation into the Empire quite well. You got an understanding that the politics and debate and slow pace of everything just caused too many problems, especially if sped along by a bad agent.

Dumb Little Things

- ...why the hell are the B-wings that slow? Like, sure, not as fast as an X-Wing, that makes sense, but come on people, there are speeds between "Formula 1 Racer" and "Semi-Truck on a 45 degree incline".

- Poor Phasma and Snoke. I mean, yeah, they were extraneous and just taking up space in the grand scheme of things, we don't need 4 major villains in the story. But those were some really abrupt ends (assuming Phasma's dead, of course. Fett came back from worse >_> ).

- I wish they had made it more clear why Luke died. I mean, I think the impression is that Luke was getting hurt by Kylo's attacks (Rey's shot during her first Force-conference with Kylo seemed to hurt him), it just wasn't killing him instantly, but I get why people are confused about his passing.

- .........no, it's not miniaturized Death Star tech. It's just a big fucking cannon. Those can exist. FFS, you don't have to bring in the Death Star every bloody time.

But seriously, people. Let your trusted subordinates in on the plan if they're the sort that might do something rash and ruin it all!
Character List:

Pub side: Lien Orell, Kyri Orell, Shaantil (possibly Dumas), Norland, Everen (bank alt ATM), Quarashaa (Pub version of the real Quarasha), Merrant

Imp Side: Quarasha, Effet Ornell, Arazel, Zedney, Zhel, Asori-Alnas

Offline Mei

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #5 on: 12/15/17, 05:19:24 PM »
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@Iaera - I couldn't have said it better.

In short, I am very disappointed with this installment. When is the real one coming out?  :umm: There was no plot, flat characters, whimpy bad guys and coward heroes. Fail.
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Offline blingdenston

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #6 on: 12/15/17, 05:27:58 PM »
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I'm going to use Iaera's post as a spine for my own thoughts, out of respect, and also because I disagree in fundamental ways and I love The Discourse.

I really, really liked this movie (tending towards 'love'). Nothing will ever beat the Ralph McQuarrie aesthetic that defines the OT for me, but I also don't believe I've ever seen a Star Wars movie that was this beautiful to look at. From the gaudy brightness drenched in shadows of Canto Bight, to the magical fantasy version of Skellig realized as Ahct-To (and it's ALREADY a magical island in the real world!), to the exploding red crystal-plain of Crait, I was genuinely enthralled the whole way through.

I really like all of these characters, which was TFA's strength and JJ Abrams' sole real gift to the franchise, and every single reunion was like getting to see an old friend again.

I despise Snoke, and I think that the inclusion of the character was, perhaps, the wankiest and most grating element from TFA.  Like the 'mystery' of Rey's parents, like whippin' out Anakin's old lightsaber, like having the Resistance ONLY USE X-WINGS, I felt like it was an attempt to reify a specific vision of Star Wars: the 'I bought all the action figures and am enacting my own backyard-theater version of Star Wars'. Adding this Supreme Leader character and building him up as this mysterious enemy was, to my current way of thinking, the dumbest and most pathetic element thrown into the goulash (yes, even more than just having a QUINTUPLE-DECKER DEATH STAR as the main threat).

Thus, I'm really happy with the decision to just axe him and let Kylo Ren take his place as the main villain. While I wish they'd thrown at least one LINE explaining or, at least, DESCRIBING who the fuck he is ("I was a Sorcerer of Tund, driven into the darkness by Palpatine's ascent!' or 'I cleaned Darth Sidious' undies and was imbued with Dark Powaaaahhh by his buttfunk!'), I'm grateful the movie came to see his redundance and dispatch him just in time for his SoulCalibur Guards to have a cool fight with Rey and Kylo.

I'm at odds with Iaera's take on Canto Bight...I love that Star Wars is, consistently, stories about lower-class people taking on fascistic militaries, but it felt both timely and moral to point out how no war machine can exist at such scale without someone profiting from it, and tying that it with the (not really all that far-fetched) cruelty and venality of such profiteers was a new twist, and helped develop the Finn character even more.

And, yes, I realize that this is a Disney product and that George Lucas is largely responsible for a special effects and programming industry scam that has systematically immiserated and devalued literal generations of workers. There is no ethical consumption under capitalism, but the creators' messages are as integral to the film as the perfidy behind its creation and I can honor the artists while despising the businesspeople. Today's secret pinko code is 'doublethink'.

On the subject of just how 'Unleashed' the Force is in this...yeah. There is a power-creep there that I'm not TOO fond of. With that said, though, I've always been open to the idea that the Force can do more things than the seven or eight tricks we saw in the movies (while, simultaneously, wanting things like the Emperor's lightning and the Jedi's Force-survival tricks to remain special and unique to their 'masters'). I have no difficulty believing that Yoda's spirit, at one with the Force, could influence a storm into doing what Luke couldn't (but should've done, a long time ago). And the psychic-contact/astral-projection stuff is a cool new wrinkle that I desperately want to leave isolated to this movie and this movie alone.

(Also I love the way they do lightsaber fights in these two movies so much more than the prequel stuff, don't @me. Did I mention the part where all the red-garbed goons had their own polymorphing kung fu weapon? That was great!)

The biggest disagreement, and the thing that I want to come back to the most when thinking about TLJ, is about the film's moral core and message...which I think is VERY strong and threaded through the movie both expertly and thrillingly.

Going back to the OT and the prequels, we learn about the Jedi as Luke does...mighty heroes, moral and intellectual leaders, impossibly-skilled warriors who guard peace and justice. Then, we see them as they were at their height: enforcers for a corrupt government, cloistered, arrogant, hidebound. The failure of the prequel Jedi feeds into the essential wrongness of Obi-Wan and Yoda in Episode V and VI...their protestation against Luke's desire to save his friends, their focus on the war between Jedi and Sith and the final battle where son must slay father to defeat the Dark Side. They lie to him, trick him, groom him...and he rejects them, and in so doing, becomes a true Jedi and helps destroy the Emperor.

But not the Empire. The great blow against them lays in the hands of Leia, Han, Lando, Chewie, the Ewoks and the Rebels. Luke wins a great moral victory, stands strong against a great darkness and, in so doing, dispels it...but the crushing blow to the Empire, the destruction of their abomination, comes through guile and guts.

And that's what 'The Last Jedi' is about...not about The Hero, but about how brutality and oppression require that the people rise up, and that Heroes exist to inspire the best in all of us.  The training scenes on Ahct-To are wonderful, both because they display Luke's understanding of this...but also how he's allowed despair and defeat to rob him of the strength this provided, to divorce himself from everyone who counts on and exalts him...because, when the crisis came, he failed, and he fears his vanity and arrogance (which he has extended, not completely incorrectly, to his Jedihood) will always bring about failure in the end.

But it won't! Because, as wrongheaded and harmful as the Jedi could be...they also WERE mighty heroes, they were moral and intellectual leaders, they were impossible warriors who guarded peace and justice...just not all the time. And not perfectly...at times, not even adequately. The galaxy needs the Jedi...not because the Jedi are the righteous heirs to the Force, but because the Jedi, more than anyone else, can REPRESENT the Force. They fight the battles no one else will, and, in doing so, INSPIRE people to dedicate themselves to those fights...to survive, to win. The galaxy needs the Jedi because the Rebels believe in the Jedi, and that belief lets them live and fight and die knowing that there is hope, even if they don't know that THEY are the hope.

Why is Rey the hero? Because, when the galaxy calls to her, when mystical forces churn within and offer power and influence and DESTINY...she chooses to be a Jedi. When she descends into the Evil Pit of Darkness, and looks in the mirror, and asks for her heart's desire...she sees nothing. Just herself. The dark side has nothing to offer her.

The dark side feeds on the pain inside of people...it offers the salve of power, of force, of vengeance. All of Rey's pain has become strength. It gave her the strength to survive on Jakku, to live off of what appears to be toothpaste-flavored instabread, to keep going in the hope that she'll see her loved ones again. When she finds a new star to guide her, friends and a cause, she may stumble but, in the end, she accepts them and rejects the lures of power, no matter how sympathetic she might be to whoever offers it.

But she's only one hero, and not even the hero that the Galaxy needs. That's the Resistance, the rebels, who's symbol she wore as a talisman when she was alone; whose humble engineers give Finn the jolt he needs to look past his own desires; who put up with Poe's impulsive gambles because they see the good in his heart.

And that ending...oh, man, that ending was something I didn't even know that I needed to see. My friend complained that, in the end, Rose and Finn's trip to Canto Bight was nothing but harmful to the cause. But, I reminded him, that we close out this movie not on the heroes triumphant...nor on the darkness growing within...but with the hope of a child for a better tomorrow, and knowledge that somewhere out there heroes are fighting for you, and that you are part of their struggled even if you only brush it for a moment. It's the best closing shot* yet, and I loved it.

https://i.imgur.com/7oCWB0z.mp4

*Also, this simple, almost cheesy translation of the real-world feelings of Star Wars fans is so much fuckin' better than just making an ersatz version with a Mega-Dega-Ultra-Death Star and I will never stop disliking JJ Abrams' horseshit, even if I do enjoy some of his movies.
« Last Edit: 12/15/17, 05:50:18 PM by blingdenston »
Pehn Qardaak - Captain of the Rodomontade
Ran-del Qardaak - Big Time Space Hero
Lastagir - Hunter for hire, no plans to retire
Hyse Qardaak - Scholar and Warrior of Peace

Offline blingdenston

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #7 on: 12/15/17, 05:32:45 PM »
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- I wish they had made it more clear why Luke died. I mean, I think the impression is that Luke was getting hurt by Kylo's attacks (Rey's shot during her first Force-conference with Kylo seemed to hurt him), it just wasn't killing him instantly, but I get why people are confused about his passing.

Kylo DOES mention that Rey couldn't possibly be pulling off their psycho-conversation, since the strain would kill her, during his Shirtless Manboob scene. And actually physically appearing there, to everybody, is probably even more exhausting.

Also, he lives entirely on fish and horker-spooge, so probably not in the best health.
Pehn Qardaak - Captain of the Rodomontade
Ran-del Qardaak - Big Time Space Hero
Lastagir - Hunter for hire, no plans to retire
Hyse Qardaak - Scholar and Warrior of Peace

Offline Ash

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #8 on: 12/15/17, 05:33:59 PM »
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The best way I can describe my experience with The Last Jedi is this: It's a fun time to watch, kinda shut your brain off and enjoy some star wars laser pewing and whatnot with flashy sabers and everything, it can be fun! But don't go in expecting it to build off the other films. World building is weak, characters don't make sense at times, the force has been kinda fucked up in how it is grounded to reality. Probably the best way to show is two differences in how the force was used.

1. Leia's miraculous survival from pulling herself back in deep space...wut. I mean, it was a cool display to show that 'Oh shit she knows the force like Luke' but again...wut. I'm pretty sure no amount of the force can save you from the vaccuum of deep space. That's how the force was hit wrong

2. Rey's encounter with the Dark side well on the Jedi homeworld planet. I think that was incredibly well done showing what the Dark Side is all about. Leading you into an endless circle, tempting you with what you desire most only for you to finally come to the end and realize that what you get is nothing. Simply emptiness. Unfulfilled passions that only leave you wanting MORE. I think that display was very well done in how the Dark Side can tempt you and utterly destroy you through what you most desire. Anakin to save padme and bring peace to the galaxy, Luke and the fear he had in The Last Jedi of another Darth Vader coming into the galaxy, Rey and the Dark Side force well.

To me the movie was throwing out all these new ideas and trying to make them stick. Some did, some didn't. But in the end gave you a good time at the sacrifice of world building. it focused far more on letting you live in the moment rather than the context to that moment. And in the end it bit this film in the rear because of it.

And as for the Yoda scene...I fucking loved that moment. It made sense to me. But then I read the books...and force ghosts could do a lot of shit even while being dad. I mean, Revan in SWTOR made an entire comeback so *shrugs* Just my opinion on that at least.
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Offline Orell

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #9 on: 12/15/17, 05:46:18 PM »
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1. Leia's miraculous survival from pulling herself back in deep space...wut. I mean, it was a cool display to show that 'Oh shit she knows the force like Luke' but again...wut. I'm pretty sure no amount of the force can save you from the vaccuum of deep space. That's how the force was hit wrong

...it's actually not that impossible. It depends on how long she was out there, but if it was, oh, a minute or two? And she needs to be hospitalized right afterwards? Then that actually fits the science: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/survival-in-space-unprotected-possible/
Character List:

Pub side: Lien Orell, Kyri Orell, Shaantil (possibly Dumas), Norland, Everen (bank alt ATM), Quarashaa (Pub version of the real Quarasha), Merrant

Imp Side: Quarasha, Effet Ornell, Arazel, Zedney, Zhel, Asori-Alnas

Offline Darshendros

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #10 on: 12/15/17, 07:55:50 PM »
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I have... mixed feelings about TLJ. Like Ben, I left the movie feeling conflicted. I liked it, don't get me wrong, but there was something about it that... I dunno. I'll have to watch it 2 or 3 more times to figure that out. Overall, I liked it and enjoyed it and will probably watch it 10 more times. Anyway, getting down to it:

Seriously, who the fuck is Snoke? 'cuz if he's powerful enough to create an unwilling Force Bond between two people - one of whom he had never even met! - and barely lift a finger to use Force abilities, you'd think he'd have been around doing stuff a lot sooner. Apparently, Luke's known about him the whole time he was trying to train new Jedi, so... who the fuck is he?! Snoke's death was also anti-climatic, especially considering that we're given absolutely zero backstory on him, other than being a wannabe Palpatine, so nobody really cares now. He was just an ugly giant head for all we know.

On that note, Luke is a terrible teacher. Considering he was trained by Yoda, you'd think he'd have done at least a half decent job and, y'know, not try to kill his strongest student. Then again, Yoda was also half-mad by that time, so... yeah. Grumpy Hermit Luke was entertaining, at least, but now I see why Mark Hamill wasn't happy about it. Lol he called it a laser sword.

Rey has become a Mary Sue and I'm angry about that. >:l The trailers made it look like Luke was actually training her, but he didn't do jack shit other than show her how to meditate. And why was she so afraid to ask him to teach her? Isn't that the primary reason she went to him? Oh, but wait, she already knows everything she needs to know. 'cuz Plot and Yoda said so. At least Kylo has an excuse for being as powerful as he is. >:l

Also, Yoda used Force Lightning. Uhhhh... what? I'm surprised Hayden Christensen didn't appear as a ghost. I was fully expecting it this time.

Captain Phasma deserved more screen time. Again. Wtf? She'll be back in the next one, I bet. If she can survive an exploding planet, she can survive an exploding starship. Her scene seemed more like fan service than anything though. :/

The Resistance part of the movie was great. I don't think I had any issues with any of it, other than the Phasma fan service. I'm curious how they're going to deal with Carrie's death for the third movie though, since Leia was the only one left now besides Chewie (which means, she'd have died in the next movie anyway). I especially like how Poe went from dashing-hero-ace-pilot to that douchebag-pilot-that-got-everyone-killed. Hah!

Poor Weasley is in an abusive relationship. Can't wait to see all the lewd fan art that comes out of that.

Oh yeah, there was also that bit at the end that was really interesting. Foreshadowing, much?

Moral of the story? Follow your superior officer's orders and don't talk to creepy boys in your head.



Offline Iaera

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #11 on: 12/15/17, 08:25:56 PM »
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Moral of the story? Follow your superior officer's orders and don't talk to creepy boys in your head.

you have resolved my angst thank you

tbf 'don't talk to creepy boys' is good advice in general

I'm going to use Iaera's post as a spine for my own thoughts, out of respect, and also because I disagree in fundamental ways and I love The Discourse.

Thanks for the post! I'm going to have to mull over it. I'm not sure I agree with much regarding the meat of the film though... maybe it will change on a follow-up viewing, but I doubt it. I've been gnawing this movie all day from every angle and while there are details I like about it, I can't find much value in its core.

Though as I said previously... I do appreciate that at least there's something there that can be debated and thought about, which in my book is worth a thousand Force Awakens, even if Force Awakens was a movie I think I find more fun to watch. I'm the same way with Quentin Tarantino's movies... I don't particularly like them, but at least I can respect them even if I'd have more fun watching a Seth Rogen dumpster fire.
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Offline Orell

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #12 on: 12/15/17, 08:31:15 PM »
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Seriously, who the fuck is Snoke?

...effectively? He's redundant. He was put in Force Awakens because they needed a big bad (because Kylo Ren wasn't ready for that role), but now that Kylo's stepping into the shoes of the main antagonist, he's not needed anymore. It's annoying that he was built up so much in Force Awakens, but I'm okay with getting rid of a redundant, unimpressive villain.

On that note, Luke is a terrible teacher. Considering he was trained by Yoda, you'd think he'd have done at least a half decent job and, y'know, not try to kill his strongest student. Then again, Yoda was also half-mad by that time, so... yeah. Grumpy Hermit Luke was entertaining, at least, but now I see why Mark Hamill wasn't happy about it. Lol he called it a laser sword.

1: Luke didn't try to kill his strongest student. He had a moment of horror and terror at seeing Ben's darkness, activated his Lightsaber in response... and then the moment passed.

And Ben awoke to see his mentor standing over him with a weapon ready, and assumed the worst. Totally understandable reaction by Ben, but still tragic.

2: I think what I like about Luke as an awful teacher is that it's related to the Legend bit. Luke only heard about the Jedi of old as legends, and so he sought to act like them, emulate them, but he forgot that those Jedi were people, fallible and flawed. And it's important because...

Rey has become a Mary Sue and I'm angry about that. >:l The trailers made it look like Luke was actually training her, but he didn't do jack shit other than show her how to meditate. And why was she so afraid to ask him to teach her? Isn't that the primary reason she went to him? Oh, but wait, she already knows everything she needs to know. 'cuz Plot and Yoda said so. At least Kylo has an excuse for being as powerful as he is. >:l

1: She's not a mary sue. She has a lot of raw power, absolutely, but look at what happens on Snoke's ship: She gets tossed around by Snoke with ease and when the fighting happens after Snoke's death, she's having trouble with one non-Forcer with a fancy weapon, while Kylo's holding his own 3v1.

In TFA, she had only beaten Kylo after he had been gutshot by Chewie, emotionally compromised by murdering his father and worn out by a surprisingly competitive fight against Finn... and this film makes it clear, Rey might be as strong in the Force as Kylo, but she doesn't really know what to do with it. The only thing impressive she does with just use of the Force is lifting a bunch of rocks.

As for the training...

2: The point of Rey's visit wasn't for her to get a big training montage and learn how to fight Shii-cho style. There should've been more of that, but hopefully we'll get a time skip in Ep9 where they can actually say "she practiced a bunch here". It's more about that Legends thing, because she leaves the island not thinking of Luke as this grand legend to follow... but as just another person, trying to do the right thing but fucking it up along the way.

Poor Weasley is in an abusive relationship. Can't wait to see all the lewd fan art that comes out of that.

...starts the film being mocked, ends the film being mocked, the slashfics are going to be amazing!

Moral of the story? Follow your superior officer's orders and don't talk to creepy boys in your head.

...you know, if the new trinity of Poe, Finn and Ray had just sat down and done what they were told, Luke would still be alive (and grumpy, and misguided, but still), the Resistance casualty rate would be on the order of 10%, instead of like 99.9%, and they'd have this well fortified and hidden position where they could regroup instead of being on the run again.

But Snoke and Phasma would still be alive (assuming she died). Still, I think it comes out ahead for the good guys there >_>.
Character List:

Pub side: Lien Orell, Kyri Orell, Shaantil (possibly Dumas), Norland, Everen (bank alt ATM), Quarashaa (Pub version of the real Quarasha), Merrant

Imp Side: Quarasha, Effet Ornell, Arazel, Zedney, Zhel, Asori-Alnas

Offline Darshendros

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #13 on: 12/16/17, 09:27:37 AM »
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1: Luke didn't try to kill his strongest student. He had a moment of horror and terror at seeing Ben's darkness, activated his Lightsaber in response... and then the moment passed.

And Ben awoke to see his mentor standing over him with a weapon ready, and assumed the worst. Totally understandable reaction by Ben, but still tragic.

That's assuming Luke's telling the truth. Jedi lie ALL THE TIME. XD



Offline Darshendros

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #14 on: 12/16/17, 10:31:28 AM »
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Also, am I the only one that kinda wished Rey joined Kylo? I mean, the Resistance woulda been fucked as a result, but it's not like she was doing anything else for them. Then Finn could've become the hero he secretly wants to be!