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Author Topic: the last jedi [spoiler city]  (Read 1851 times)

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Offline Iaera

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #15 on: 12/16/17, 11:41:43 AM »
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Also, am I the only one that kinda wished Rey joined Kylo? I mean, the Resistance woulda been fucked as a result, but it's not like she was doing anything else for them. Then Finn could've become the hero he secretly wants to be!

I think that would certainly have been interesting and not unjustified, but although I think it fits well it also runs contrary to the narrative they want to present. I liked Rey at first, but the more I think about it, the less I like what they're doing with her. I don't want to say too much on this point because it gets into socio-political commentary, so I'll just say that I think Disney is rather cynically exploiting some fashionable social trends and Rey's character suffers as a result.

A Rey that joins Kylo would have been fitting, and actually a very, very interesting moral story that perfectly fits the times we live in. She has no education, no philosophy, no grounding in any skill, discipline, or social responsibility... the perfect candidate to buy into Kylo's tyranny as his #1 Useful Idiot. Which I think is the sort of slap-in-the-face wake-up call 2017 needed.
"For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic." - Obi-Wan Kenobi

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Iaera Farworlder - Jedi Master, lightsaber instructor, Jedi Custodum
Sibyl-ko Tanaji - ex-punk, fighter pilot, Argent Squadron
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Offline Darshendros

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #16 on: 12/16/17, 11:55:02 AM »
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This came up in an Episode 8 group I joined. (also, that's me)



Oh, whoops. Just realized it cut off the whole comment. Here it is:

This is what really bothered me though: Assuming your ship's going at full thrust to flee from the colossal dreadnaught bombarding you, your ship doesn't slow down when it runs out of fuel and power goes offline. It's going to still be going the same speed, just adrift in space, 'cuz zero gravity and physics. If anything, getting hit by cannons would only push them out farther. So, in theory, those cruisers should have survived.

@Iaera: I agree with all points.



Offline Iaera

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #17 on: 12/16/17, 12:23:16 PM »
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Um, actually...

From Phantom Menace:

Ric Oli: "There's not enough power to get us to Coruscant. The hyperdrive is leaking."
Qui-gon: "We'll have to land somewhere to repair and refuel the ship."

And there's a similar exchange in Empire Strikes Back.

Furthermore, Star Wars has never even tried to bother with anything resembling real physics. The entire Death Star battle in A New Hope is a WW2 torpedo bombing and dogfighting scene but with a space skin slapped over it. Star Wars space stuff has always behaved as if it's in an atmosphere (the relevant physics snag; zero-g has nothing to do with it. Atmosphere creates drag, which bleeds off the kinetic energy of a moving object as heat through friction).
"For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic." - Obi-Wan Kenobi

Fiat justitia ruat clum

Iaera Farworlder - Jedi Master, lightsaber instructor, Jedi Custodum
Sibyl-ko Tanaji - ex-punk, fighter pilot, Argent Squadron
also many alts i never play ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

Offline Darshendros

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #18 on: 12/16/17, 12:45:10 PM »
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Oh... Wait... Yeah, that's right. I just remembered a whole Rebels episode talking about fuel now. Damnit, Jim.

Still, I expected better, especially considering most of the sci-fi that's come out in recent years actually apply zero-g physics when space stuff was involved. Or maybe I've just become spoiled.
« Last Edit: 12/16/17, 12:49:57 PM by Darshendros »



Offline recoveringgeek

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #19 on: 12/16/17, 07:40:36 PM »
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Saw it today.

Most of you already echoed most of my thoughts, pros and cons. I can't respond to everyone's individual points, I'll be here formatting [.Quote] for hours. I'm just going to ramble instead...

I did read this review that helped me question my own perspective, and really try and see it from the point of view of breaking your toys so you can build new ones; http://www.slashfilm.com/the-last-jedi-defense/

Before I dive in, @Orell, apparently in one of the novelizations prior to The Force Awakens, when the Rebellion wins, and restores the Republic, Mon Mothma is afraid of the Republic becoming another Empire, so they immediately disband their Navy, and most Systems/worlds revert to planetary defense fleets, etc. That's why there is no Republic "military".

So when the First Order appears, some members of the Senate secretly fund the Resistance, so as to maintain their outward appearance of non-aggression... because reasons.

My thoughts;

I liked the growth of Poe's character, disobeying orders, though he showed little regret that I recall to his fellow pilots and crews dying because of his actions. Also, did they describe those bombers as carrying magnetic or seeker bombs? Because I couldn't shake this hilarious image in my head of the bombs clearing the bomb bay doors and then all floating in haphazard directions because, you know, no gravity in space.

With that in mind, I got weary of the Resistance having the worst ships and tech in the galaxy. No shields, no weapons, slow as hell, every ship, vehicle, etc was barely capable of taking on a single Destroyer, let alone a Dreadnaught or whatever the hell Snoke's Flagship was.

I don't even think I realized Ackbar was on the bridge, and to know he died without fanfare was sad to me. He needed to be the tactician he was, and sitting the chair instead of Laura Dern's Vice-Admiral. Hyperspace jumping into the pursuing fleet would have been a fitting end for him. However, that's the Legends Canon talking, where we know him to be more than a catch-phrase character.

I liked that Ren's escort wing fired the fatal shots when he hesitated. I wanted to see him destroy his own wingmen in anger though.

That said, I liked Leia saving herself. One of my disappointments with The Force Awakens was feeling like Leia was overlooked when it came to the Force. Yoda said; "No, there is another." I had wanted Leia to have some training. For those critical of her surviving the vacuum, she's the daughter of Anakin Skywalker. She's got some power at her disposal.

What's worse? The entire mission to Canto Bight being ineffectual and ultimately costing more Resistance lives? Or the fact that they get arrested so they can be put in the cell with a highly skilled Slicer who could have left at any time and was apparently just sleeping off his hangover?

That said, I loved the Slicer. I didn't need him to be Benecio Del Toro. However his true mercenary moral code was spot on. Star Wars needs those supporting characters who are needed, even when they can't be trusted. He was there to provide the expositionary dialogue explaining the fluid morality of war and war profiteering. I guess that's why the Resistance can't have cutting edge Mon Calamarian shipyards at their disposal.

It's funny, in the moments before Snoke died, I was scrutinizing his face, trying to figure out if the wounds, Dark Side corruption meant anything, or weren't meant to be a clue to his origins. Then he died a clever death, and it illustrated to me that he understood that Ren was the grandson of Anakin Skywalker, and very powerful, and a threat, so he needed to control him. Hence he couldn't clearly read Ren's thoughts as well as he thought he could.

The review I linked to above discusses Snoke and I can't decide if it is good art how they handled him, or poor storytelling.

The fight in the throne room was all made of win. Ren's plea for Rey to join him was very much in the tone of the setting. I just wish he had meant what he said about tearing it all down, including the First Order. That he didn't want to rule with her, just run away with her, not for romance, or wealth, or fear, just for companionship without service or servitude. That was a missed opportunity after all of Ren's emotional conflict.

While I liked most of what transpired between Rey and Luke, while watching it I was saddened by what they handed Mark Hamill, knowing how much he disagreed with it all, and I really would like to have known what his vision for Luke all those years later would have been.

The fanboy in me wanted Luke to levitate the X-Wing out of the water and fly off with R2 to pursue the Falcon after he is chastised by Yoda. I'm okay with Yoda burning the tree, but I would have liked to have heard just his voice at first, then a Force ghost appearance at the end to sink it home, and make his cameo less cackling goblin and more stoic Jedi Master.

Side note: Yoda was a physical puppet. I totally thought he was CG. Not sure if that's great or bad puppeteering.

Maybe this is why Rian Johnson made the choices he did. I totally expected Luke to fly his X-Wing into the battle on Craite and launch proton torpedos into the mouth of the cannon, thus saving Finn. That's the same part of me that wanted Luke to take out a few Imperial Walkers single-handedly because he's the Goddamn Batm son of Anakin Skywalker.

The best twist for me? At the end of the duel with Ren my thought bubble was literally; "Yay! They didn't kill him! They didn't add another pointless sacrifice of one of the O.T. main chara... oh."

The fading away to join the Force was one thing, but again, I was disappointed he never left the damn island.

The humour worked for me. Trolling Hux over the comms was great. That said, I loved it when Hux was about to pull his blaster and murder Ren. I was almost rooting for him. I'd like to see Hux hurt Ren in some way before the Trilogy winds down, as he is probably the one true, loyal First Order man left.

Phasma wasted... again. Gwendoline Christie wasted... again. Really disappointed. She should have been sent to the casino and crossed paths with Finn there, in or out of armour. We know she can act and do stunt fight choreography.

My last ramble;

The darkest part of the movie? Ren telling Rey her parents sold her for booze and died in a junkyard somewhere. That's dark man. I truly expected that to be a lie he uses to seduce her to the Dark Side. If that's truly her heritage, then; Yay, not another Skywalker! but also; Wow, what a gut punch.
« Last Edit: 12/16/17, 07:43:20 PM by recoveringgeek »
I knew some of the Palace history, but not the bit about Jaade crashing that barge. That's good lore, right there.  :grin:

Offline blingdenston

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #20 on: 12/16/17, 09:51:00 PM »
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Additional thoughts, unsorted:

I love Finn so much. I love what a dunderhead he is, what a fuckup he is, and I really want to see who the hero he becomes. "REBEL scum."

I liked Maz Kanata here about fifteen times more than I did at any point in TFA. I want to read or see a mini-story about the union disagreement between her and...the Assassin's Sisterhood? The Fangbang Gang? The Industrial Wookiees of the World? Also, +10 for jetpack-having.

Fuck Snoke.

Mark Hamill acted the HELL outta this movie. I loved seeing Han again in TFA (and feel like he got lots of the best moments), but I hated how he took over the movie once he showed up. Old Man Luke is used so well, serves the other characters so beautifully, that it felt less like a pandering distraction and more like an organic development of time.

Fuck Clone Wars-era CGI Yoda. Long live anarchy-puppet Yoda!

"Take that ridiculous thing off!" OK, unfuck Snoke SLIGHTLY.

Was this the best SW score yet? I have almost all of them, and I've barely listed to TFA's soundtrack...but now I can't get Rey's theme, the Resistance theme, and the callbacks to Binary Sunset and the Battle of Endor out of my head.
Pehn Qardaak - Captain of the Rodomontade
Ran-del Qardaak - Big Time Space Hero
Lastagir - Hunter for hire, no plans to retire
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Offline Iaera

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #21 on: 12/16/17, 09:59:35 PM »
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I didn't notice the score much on one viewing. The TIE Fighter Attack callback during the salt cave chase stood out, that was nice.
"For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic." - Obi-Wan Kenobi

Fiat justitia ruat clum

Iaera Farworlder - Jedi Master, lightsaber instructor, Jedi Custodum
Sibyl-ko Tanaji - ex-punk, fighter pilot, Argent Squadron
also many alts i never play ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

Online Orell

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #22 on: 12/16/17, 10:10:19 PM »
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Fuck Clone Wars-era CGI Yoda. Long live anarchy-puppet Yoda!

Honestly, I think people are getting way too hyperbolic over the Puppet vs CGI thing. It's always going to be a tradeoff, puppet allows for more physical interactivity and a more natural feel, CGI allows for a wider range of motion, often at a much smaller overall cost.

Did Lucas go overboard with the CGI in the prequels? Absolutely. But he's always been a filmmaker most interested with technical innovations, it was his drive that led to the much wider adoption of digital cameras, his vision for Star Wars and the creation of ILM that basically made special effects effective and affordable, and, yes, his experimentation with what CGI characters can do that led stuff like Gollum from Lord of the Rings.

For what was needed, a physical puppet (and probably a few hours inside the effects house to "tough things up") was the right call. But let's stop saying "Puppets are always better than CGI", it's more complicated than that, as this video by the exceptional Mr. Kallgren helps explore.
Character List:

Pub side: Lien Orell, Kyri Orell, Shaantil (possibly Dumas), Norland, Everen (bank alt ATM), Quarashaa (Pub version of the real Quarasha), Merrant

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Online Orell

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #23 on: 12/16/17, 10:11:33 PM »
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Oh, one little thing? So, with the first shot that was fired on Luke by the AT-AT's, and the giant explosion of red that came with it...

...how many were thinking "holy shit are they going ludicrous gibs in a Star Wars movie?!" Because I was totally thinking that >_>.
Character List:

Pub side: Lien Orell, Kyri Orell, Shaantil (possibly Dumas), Norland, Everen (bank alt ATM), Quarashaa (Pub version of the real Quarasha), Merrant

Imp Side: Quarasha, Effet Ornell, Arazel, Zedney, Zhel, Asori-Alnas

Offline recoveringgeek

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #24 on: 12/16/17, 10:11:50 PM »
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I listened to the Score while writing my ramble, here are the choicest tracks on my first go around;

Ahch-To Island
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLVowa3xEbY

Canto Bight
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8ue_5T4fMk

The Battle of Crait
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIIvAoHIsPQ
I knew some of the Palace history, but not the bit about Jaade crashing that barge. That's good lore, right there.  :grin:

Offline blingdenston

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #25 on: 12/17/17, 03:10:08 PM »
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Honestly, I think people are getting way too hyperbolic over the Puppet vs CGI thing.

I use 'CGI vs. Puppet' as descriptors because it's funny, but the real distinction I intend there is that the characterization of Yoda seems so bifurcated between his original appearances (plus TLJ) and all of his prequel-era appearances. I'm not even arguing that it's wrong, or unnatural, but the prequel Yoda is a gross, unlikable character, almost unrecognizable from the enigmatic, wise, and silly Yoda of ESB, ROTJ, and TLJ, and detracts from my love for Yoda as a whole.
Pehn Qardaak - Captain of the Rodomontade
Ran-del Qardaak - Big Time Space Hero
Lastagir - Hunter for hire, no plans to retire
Hyse Qardaak - Scholar and Warrior of Peace

Online Orell

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #26 on: 12/17/17, 07:12:07 PM »
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Honestly, I think people are getting way too hyperbolic over the Puppet vs CGI thing.

I use 'CGI vs. Puppet' as descriptors because it's funny, but the real distinction I intend there is that the characterization of Yoda seems so bifurcated between his original appearances (plus TLJ) and all of his prequel-era appearances. I'm not even arguing that it's wrong, or unnatural, but the prequel Yoda is a gross, unlikable character, almost unrecognizable from the enigmatic, wise, and silly Yoda of ESB, ROTJ, and TLJ, and detracts from my love for Yoda as a whole.

Yeah, okay, that's fair. I've just gotten a lot more understanding of Lucas' eccentricities when it comes to the prequels. Like, despite how effects-crazy Episode 1, it wasn't that expensive a film, being made on only a $115 million budget: Very very large, but not the astronomical amounts that you might expect... and a lot of that was the Digital Backlot stuff he was doing: Shoot everything in front of a green screen, and you don't need to worry about making a shitton of expensive sets.

I mean, it didn't work great at creating a good film, but not all experiments do :).

Oh, and one other thing I noticed about the Last Jedi?

Rey's plan with Kylo is that, even though he's a mass-murdering space nazi... "Look, Luke, he's really hot and conflicted and he doesn't really mean all of that! I'm sure that if I can talk to him I can totally get through to him, I can totally change the bad boy and he'll be able to use his hotne- I mean, the Force for good!"

I mean, more nuanced than that, but just kinda amused me because... ain't that like half of the Rey/Ren slash-fic stories out there? :D
Character List:

Pub side: Lien Orell, Kyri Orell, Shaantil (possibly Dumas), Norland, Everen (bank alt ATM), Quarashaa (Pub version of the real Quarasha), Merrant

Imp Side: Quarasha, Effet Ornell, Arazel, Zedney, Zhel, Asori-Alnas

Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #27 on: 12/18/17, 02:58:50 PM »
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Inb4 rey and kylo end up together in episode IX when he possibly gets redeemed.

Inb4 it's a loveless marriage.

Offline Karmic

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #28 on: 12/18/17, 09:58:48 PM »
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Just saw it a couple of hours ago.

And I'm with Bling.  I loved this movie.  My hubby loved the movie.  All of it.

And I can't make it sound better briefer than what Bling said.  INcluding the moral compass of the story which I thought was solidly there, and solidly Star Wars.  That no, the Last Jedi isn't dead - because Luke isn't the last Jedi.  She's the next generation.  The one that doesn't need old books (though she took'em) and old traditions.  The one that just needs the hope, the goodness (that's in her.. she needs no other compass), and the Force behind them.  To fight on BECAUSE the evil needs fighting.  Because the little slave kid needs a reason to have hope, to think that one day he can break out of his slavery and join the rebellion.  And help the cause of GOOD...because GOOD.

Star Wars has always been about hope and redemption.  And this movie gets it to me.  Rey will still be fighting to Save Kylo - she grew up on those stories, she knows how the Luke saved Vadar.  She'll not give up on him while she's fighting him -and he's not going to stop fighting.

I loved the General Hux jokes at the beginning and they felt "ace pilot" to me - in fact I heard all of that with him saying "General HUGS" until he said it more clearly.  And hell yea that's ace pilot flying all right! WOOHOO! 

I love the casino - all of that whole scene - a nod back to the original cantina scenes along with a classic prison break (in several ways).

Oh... Princess... she broke my heart so many times in this movie, and that final scene with her and Luke. OMG  :sigh: :cry:  As if they knew! 

I don't care how she got back to the ship - the Force works miracles and if the Force decided it wanted her alive - by golly it happens - its called fantasy for a reason.  Don't even start rationalizing with science a whole movie series built in a galaxy far far away with THE FORCE as a thing.  So just stop.  They stopped answering to our physics and realities upon its creation.

I LOVE That Snope died to his PRIDE.  No, I didn't feel it was dumb at all - and Kylo getting to sneak-kill him as if to make the point of /blindedbypride.  (Much like Hux in the beginning, both giving speeches to hear themselves talk lol).  He was a waste of space and his purpose was served - both by the movies (so any fight would be stupid...) and by the galaxy itself.  Snopes said it - as ONE rises to power ANOTHER rises in balance.  So he was extra...  And his own pride took him down, as it so often does for the Sith.  And I could care less who he may or may not be, or be related to.

And yea I too thought for a second Rey would take Kylo's hand and actually really move forward in a new universe, putting the reality of the Force behind them.  Putting the past and all it had been in its faiths - behind.  As the last two practitioners (and believing the books had died with the tree) they really could change the course of the galaxy - together.  Throw out the "evil" and let knowledge of the Force die off.  And just lead (not romantic no...just equals). 

But then I remembered this was a middle movie and not the end of a trilogy so...naw that ain't gonna happen!

Would have been very interesting if it had; but that would be destroying the franchise for an entirely new one - and that's not what Disney is doing.


I loved the huge Force-power explosion because damnit - lifelong Jedi Masters doing nothing but thinking on an island SHOULD be ooberpowerful.  As should a Sith Master who looks like Gollum.  HELLS TO THE YEAH THEY WOULD!  :aww:

Wanted more light sabers fights.  All of them -more.  And zomg the Imperial Guard Red Guys - LOVED"EM! HELLS YEA!  That was so awesome when he zapped Kylo and they snapped into battle position in a blink.  YEA! :rage:  Wanted more Luke v. Kylo fight but yea... :(  Can't really do all that much with a force-projection given solid form I guess.

I LOVED YODA!  And I thought he looked SO MUCH BETTER than that crappy CGI Yoda - so glad to hear its a puppet.  Sorry but I'm of the opinion both tech works better together :).  And everything he said made sense to me- given he's a creature beyond our mortal ken and he knows how to lighten up and really Trust the Force now.  Luke was always so dramatic.  So literal.  Trees and Books are not the Force.  Neither is Luke.  The Force is all.

Let go of the past.  Move past it.  Evolve. The new is change, but it it still the Force.  There is no death. There is Only the Force.  The Force, good, evil, will always be there - and there will always need be new people to take up the saber and make it their own. 

The movie's own morality also speaking and breaking a 4th wall - Han, Luke, Leia - they were the heroes of their time.  But this is a different time, and there must be new heroes for the next generation.  The past is still here, but it always has to evolve for the next group to understand the same lessons.


LOVED IT.  Did think the first one was better though, but I usually do of middle movies in a series.  Thought some of the plot was pointless on its own yes - but still loved it all.  Thought some plot decisions stupid, yes - welcome to movies I say.  Still loved it all.  And love that yea, it does come down to moving rocks.  I love that yea, apparently Jacko is about as close to nowhere as you can get.  And red salts on white is wow...just wow cool.  And Finn didn't have to die! <3

Yea the movie has flaws; they all do - including every Star Wars movie.  I still wish JJ Had kept the movies; I don't like switching out directors in series of movies - much less a trilogy. But oh well.   Not my decision unfortunately. 

At least Luke didn't go out like a bitch like Han did :/.

And crystal puppies!! I WANT ONE!

~~
As to world building.  All I can say is when I fell in love with Star Wars there was no world building.  There were three movies.  And that's all there was, for years and years and *years*.  For me, for my entire life until the prequels came out - it was the original three and the ewoke movie  :halo:.   I fell in love with those worlds long before I had any clue what "good" or "bad" world building was. That all came later.  Much later. And for decades after.

They've just started this world building and sure Lucas came with his own (and then destroyed it).

But this isn't just Lucas's baby anymore - the movie plot trying to sell that moral to us ooberhard.  But just because they haven't given you 20 years of EU world building between 2-3 movies doesn't mean its bad world building.  Gotta give them time to tell the stories.  We've had over 40 years worth of the originals.  Not really apples to apples.  Disney's not stupid.  They just bought Fox... there's no /telling/ what world building we may be about to see. They started the "canon lore" over for a reason.

(P.s. Bling.. why do you do that to us so we have to quote your crap in order to read it!!  :nuu: :darkside: )
« Last Edit: 12/18/17, 10:03:17 PM by Karmic »

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Offline blingdenston

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #29 on: 12/18/17, 10:21:33 PM »
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For laughs.
Pehn Qardaak - Captain of the Rodomontade
Ran-del Qardaak - Big Time Space Hero
Lastagir - Hunter for hire, no plans to retire
Hyse Qardaak - Scholar and Warrior of Peace