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Author Topic: the last jedi [spoiler city]  (Read 1856 times)

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Offline Cyone

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #60 on: 01/10/18, 03:46:02 PM »
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"Carrie Poppins." Heh, that's good. Yeah I'm sorry that was... really dumb, and bad. It's dumb just conceptually, not taking into account how poorly it was executed, and its impact on the universe as a whole. I've always hated the idea that the true Force is just superpowers and godhood, and this was the ultimate assertion of that. I'd like to think that, all being at least in some capacity roleplayers here, we can at least appreciate the massive impact this has on the pure architecture of the Star Wars' universe from that perspective, regardless of whether you feel that's good or bad. Execution wise, it was pointless, totally pointless. It's 100% fanservice and a poorly chosen outlet for it at that, in my opinion. I heard someone say in a video I watched, speaking positively of the "event," saying "we've been waiting so long for Leia to really use the Force." To which my gut reaction, "...Really? Have we?" Because I certainly haven't. Leia has always been a character defined "on her own terms" as I would put it. She is a "princess" but her royalty doesn't make her important, her intelligence, leadership, and capability does. She is the daughter of Anakin and member of the "holy Skywalker lineage," but that was never what made her important, doesn't even come up in the foundations of the character, and she never needed it to accomplish all the heroic feats she accomplishes. This was just a needless deification of a character previously powerful for not being a deity, which succinctly ruins the whole bloody point of that. I'm not saying I think she shouldn't be able to or have used the Force, but there are infinite other more sensible, nuanced, and intelligent ways to have done that which wouldn't have made me balk and practically laugh at their sheer ridiculousness.

Which is really where the poor cinematography and storytelling of it comes in. From a cinematography perspective, it's just poorly shot. The big wideout makes it look goofy and surreal, the closeups draw things out only to have that intimate, nuanced feeling completely blown away and send you spiraling out of the moment even as Leia flies effortlessly back to safety... in the decompressed wreck of a ship that she somehow safely re-enters via a conveniently intact airlock. From a storytelling perspective, it doesn't make sense, the pacing is jarring and awkward, the reactions to it seem odd and unfitting, the followup is lackluster and mostly hand-waved away, and it's totally pointless. It has no impact on the story other than to take Leia out of it so they could replace her with Holdo, who is totally unnecessary to the movie herself and has no character other than being a weirdly aloof and mean Leia clone. And just... she is literally blown out of a ship and into space. The question here is not "oh people can survive in space for a sec especially with the Force" it's that she was on the bridge of starship that was hit with such firepower as to completely blow it the frak up and cause the whole section to explosively decompress into space. I'm sorry, but that's too much. I'm a comicbook lover and a fantasy geek, I by no means require realism and I am more than willing to suspend disbelief, but it has to fit, and there has to be some reason, even if it's just "eh it's cool." Which I guess is how some people feel, but not I.

It felt silly, and cheap. It took me out of the movie, and in hindsight, took away the character for me. She was the princess who rescued herself, the mere emissary who defies Lord Vader to his face and sets in motion the end of the Empire, she was General Organa of the Rebel Alliance. Now she's, what, holy mother and space angel? Boo. I wasn't waiting all this time for Leia to "really use the Force" because the fact that she didn't, that she was a Skywalker who wasn't defined by superpowers and godhood, made her powerful and uniquely relevant in the series. She helped embody a message I feel is more and more sadly lost that was originally at the core of Star Wars, which is that the Force works in everything. It's not being able to throw crap with your mind and do flips and coerce people, it's the power of fate, and the ability of heroes to change it. Leia's been using the Force since the moment we first saw that blockade runner in its seemingly hopeless flight from the overwhelming mass of the star destroyer. Now, as far as I'm concerned, Leia, the character, is dead, and so is what she represented in the world of Star Wars.

...and I told myself I wasn't going to do this. :sigh:

And to finish this out, because I just have to say it seeing it have come up in here:

SOMEBODY PULL THAT GOD DAMN X-WING OUT OF THE WATER AND FLY OFF TO BE A HERO FOR THE SAKE OF ALL THAT IS STAR WARS. It legitimately upsets me that they would take that, take time to show it to us, to draw all these comparisons, to Dagoba to Yoda to all of that, put it in the forefront of our minds, that ultimate, iconic, epitomizing scene of faith and hope and triumph and things not being as they seem and you know all the stuff this movie was nominally about just to do absolutely frak all with it. Nothing. Nada. Never comes up again. Just wanted to be cheeky and put Checkhov's gun on the wall only to leave it there because we're so very clever and that's what this is all about, subvert everything forever.

Are. You. Kidding. Me. NO. I didn't want to see the Falcon swoop in to save the day in a shot-for-shot copypasta of the asteroid field escape cut together with the destruction of the second Death Star because we already saw that then and—the real point here—seeing the Falcon fly again was our symbolic, heart-soaring, cheer-drawing, stand-up-and-do-a-real-life-fistpump moment from THE LAST MOVIE. You can't just do that again, and why even would you when you already took time to set up the perfect sequal. I do not even CARE who it is who does it, who flies it, to where, or even if it bloody flies at all really and if you want to get cute with that be my guest, but you pull that god damn starfighter out of the water and make me smile. Why on Earth would you not? What purpose does it serve to give us that only to let it linger? Isn't that what people were so mad about JJ Abrams supposedly doing? Why is it stupid when he does it but brilliant when someone else does it, only without a reason?

And as for the realism of it, I'm sorry but who freaking cares!? This is my comparison, the other side of the coin, it isn't like the Leia thing. It's not an outlandish, out-of-the-blue universe-breaking moment of WTF'ery that has no purpose being there, it's the ultimate heartwarming reward of fan faith and a powerful moment to say "hey, this is Star Wars." And again, what better way to underscore all these themes this movie was supposed to be about than in that one, simple, powerful action. That's the whole frickin' point of continuing a saga, particularly one that is predicated at its very core on the idea of purposeful, building repetition and the great cycle. You have all this history, all this emotion and investment and explanation and detail, you've built all of this brick by brick so why would you just waste it, or worse, go out of your way to tear it down?

Why does Leia fly and the X-Wing of hope stay at the bottom of the sea?
« Last Edit: 01/10/18, 03:49:41 PM by Cyone »

Offline Iaera

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #61 on: 01/10/18, 03:54:57 PM »
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The Force works in everything. It's not being able to throw crap with your mind and do flips and coerce people, it's the power of fate, and the ability of heroes to change it.

Well said! It's kind of off-topic, but this has always been a pet peeve of mine, and you said it really well here, so I just wanted to throw in some mad props! :lightside:

Quote
SOMEBODY PULL THAT GOD DAMN X-WING OUT OF THE WATER AND FLY OFF TO BE A HERO FOR THE SAKE OF ALL THAT IS STAR WARS. It legitimately upsets me that they would take that, take time to show it to us, to draw all these comparisons, to Dagoba to Yoda to all of that, put it in the forefront of our minds, that ultimate, iconic, epitomizing scene of faith and hope and triumph and things not being as they seem and you know all the stuff this movie was nominally about just to do absolutely frak all with it. Nothing. Nada. Never comes up again. Just wanted to be cheeky and put Checkhov's gun on the wall only to leave it there because we're so very clever and that's what this is all about, subvert everything forever.

Also well said. The Chekov's Gun aspect of it bothers me, and I think you're correct to point out the edgy subversion thereof, which seems trollishly intentional.
« Last Edit: 01/10/18, 03:57:38 PM by Iaera »
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Offline Auryn

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #62 on: 01/10/18, 09:03:55 PM »
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Quote
SOMEBODY PULL THAT GOD DAMN X-WING OUT OF THE WATER AND FLY OFF TO BE A HERO FOR THE SAKE OF ALL THAT IS STAR WARS. It legitimately upsets me that they would take that, take time to show it to us, to draw all these comparisons, to Dagoba to Yoda to all of that, put it in the forefront of our minds, that ultimate, iconic, epitomizing scene of faith and hope and triumph and things not being as they seem and you know all the stuff this movie was nominally about just to do absolutely frak all with it. Nothing. Nada. Never comes up again. Just wanted to be cheeky and put Checkhov's gun on the wall only to leave it there because we're so very clever and that's what this is all about, subvert everything forever.

Also well said. The Chekov's Gun aspect of it bothers me, and I think you're correct to point out the edgy subversion thereof, which seems trollishly intentional.


You can look at it as Chekov's Gun, but you can also look at is from the perspective of coming full circle, and the symbolism of both Luke's resignation and his action of cutting himself off from the force.

In ESB, Luke's X-wing sinks in the bog. Yoda be like 'get that bitch out', Luke be like 'lol no do I look like Hercules to you', Yoda proceeds to prove him wrong. The size of the ship is all in his mind and the possibilities of the Force are endless, is the message that Luke and the viewers are given.

The shot of the X-wing submerged in TLJ, first off, gives some visual information:

- Luke has hidden the ship so it can't be spotted from the air. Re-enforcing that he's in hiding.
- Oh, that's how he got here. Quaint.
- That kind of reminds me of the X-wing stuck in the swamp...

But in reflection of the ESB sequence, there's an underlying presentation of resignation, of giving up. Of deciding within oneself 'no, possibilities aren't endless' or even, 'I need to put back away the power that I misused'. Mentally Luke is in a bit of a bog as well, so the imagery of the buried X-wing and the fact that it never came to surface again was poignant for me. It also meshes with the theme of 'leaving the old behind'. Luke is old and jaded, he's no longer that young man, daring and full of hope and ace pilot. Even when he does eventually act, he's not indulging in hubris as he did when he took off from Dagobah to Bespin. The absence of the X-wing is what highlighted that shift.

I also don't think people repeating similar mistakes is the massive stretch, even for a Jedi. I'm not sure what the issue is with that - Jedi are still mortal and imperfect. People make the same mistakes all the time, most especially when the first time was so long ago that the lesson is a little obscured by time. Luke tried to rebuild something massive, on his own, with very little reference material. He made a mistake in a moment of panic that cost him, his friends, the Jedi, and the galaxy dearly. Sure, it was a bloody big mistake, but I don't feel 'he already learned X lesson in RotJ' is fair on Luke as an assessment of likelihood. Especially when the SW universe is place entrenched in the concept of the same mistakes being repeated over and over again in a morbid eternal loop.

But that's my interpretation, and that's the wonderful thing about media - everyone takes away something different.
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Offline Karmic

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #63 on: 01/10/18, 10:16:52 PM »
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And really that's still just TWO mistakes in his life - three if you count going out into isolation and never coming back at all... xD

I do have two questions..

1-What is the "Checkov's gun" analogy mean? I have watched the ST movies many times (the new ones though not as much) but i'm not sure what this is suppose to mean/imply?

2-So in the EU (asking because I've never read it) who is it that kills off the Skywalker Jedi School?  I had thought that in the original - yes, Han and Princess had twins (?) force sensitive children - Luke trained them and one went bad and destroyed his pupils and his academy?

Or did that last part not happen in the EU?

~~
Just wanted to clarify - I was making the discussion point that if someone's arguments with the movie have to do with the plot holes then the plot hole of bringing up the xwing and defeating everyone and living for the next movie (because apparently the new characters still have to take a backseat to old hats coming in when they fail at saving the day) - vs. the plot hole of astral projecting himself and it killing him - to me, one is not necessarily any better quality than the other.  They can both "make sense" enough when looked at from XYZ. 

I found the one they chose to also be especially moving; though no not in that "yea look at that xwing fly hero man" way - but in that "hey look they got older just like we did..." and appreciating a very important scene between the siblings (and the actors and fans) as the old guard makes way for the new.

Just as yes, there are many other ways they could have gone.   And I'd probably have liked a lot of them just as much.

I didn't mean to suggest it was the only way to make sense.  Kriff I do NOT expect my fantasy/scifi to make any sense at all!  Just that I can see their rationale I guess in what they chose to do; and as these heroes are not inviolate for me - I went into this whole slew of "rewriting the history books" movies expecting all of our beloved heros to die/be removed from the story.  And however they did it; people still being not happy.

Did I think it was perfect? No.  I don't think the originals are perfect, either. *gasp* ;) 

Could it have been better? Yes.  But I can say that for almost every movie I've ever seen in my life - and for about 16 years or so no I've gone every other weekend to the movies almost consistently...  so I've seen a lot of movies just counting those :).  And spent the money happily; because I *love* big screen movies.


~~ semi off topic~~
Do I still like these two better than the first three; oh kriff yes. 

No *whiny* teenager (At least Kylo really isn't his grandpa THAT way) that ruins Vadar for me.  All kylo does is wreck rooms.  That's over in two minutes lol.  No jar jar, or entire race of jar jar fighting brainless droids that still manage to crack jokes.  No ruining of Yoda by making him fight by bouncing around like a squirrel monkey on crack (hands down the most disappointed I've been of a single star wars movie scene...ever.  Really?!)  The first three aren't inspiring - they tell a back story without any of the emotional attachment or heart of the original, and to me - of these two. And that's about the only reason to watch it the first couple of times - the backstory and galaxy building for the rest of the series.

This one had that heart.  Had moving scenes.  And at the end, left me with that feeling of "YEA! THE REBELLION LIVES!" inspiration.  But that was me. 

Originals are of course still my favorite; and I really doubt that will ever change for any of us :).

And when my friend who's 45, who didn't watch any of the Star Wars movies until he was past 35 and because we almost wouldn't let him go any longer without watching them... he watched them.  Watched the prequels.  Found them good, but never got why everyone was all into them.

He saw Rogue One - he called me and he said "Karmic (insert irl name). I get it.  That movie, I got it.  It did it for me.  It all makes sense now. The Force and Vadar and the light - just wow."  And I've never heard any adult ever say that about the prequels.

To me that means they've caught some of that spark we all loved; and it feels good.  To know at least part of that message of hope and redemption and that even the little guy matters because "I am one with the force and the force is with me..." in every little bit of the universe - and all the lovely jungian archetypes - won't stop with the death of the actors and the loss of the series to the annals of history.  That this can still be great.

Just sucks not everyone feels they are doing a good job with it.

(Considering I believed that any other star wars movies ever done again would never even come close - i'm impressed with these  :grin:)

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Offline Orell

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #64 on: 01/10/18, 10:37:17 PM »
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1-What is the "Checkov's gun" analogy mean? I have watched the ST movies many times (the new ones though not as much) but i'm not sure what this is suppose to mean/imply?

Chekov's gun has nothing to do with Star Trek's Chekov (although the Star Trek character might be named after him? "Pavel Andreievich Chekov" vs "Anton Pavlovich Chekhov", kiiiiiinda similar...).

It's a reference to the Russian Playwright Anton Chekov regarding set-up and payoff. The point of "Chekov's gun" is that if you make a point about a gun on the wall in Act 1, it better as hell get fired in Act 2 or 3, otherwise it should be removed from the play because there's no point to it. Streamline the story, avoid including elements that don't actually impact the plot at all.

In this specific case, seeing the submerged X-Wing is a note that could be read as a set-up for a future payoff: The ship's still around, that means there's good odds it'll get used later on. IF not, then it shouldn't have been included because it's a wasted shot in an already long movie.

There's alternate explanations, and things like Red Herrings, misdirection and being used for other purposes do exist, but it is a bit odd that the X-Wing gets shown off and just... sits there, corroding for the rest of the film.
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Offline blingdenston

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #65 on: 01/11/18, 04:37:35 PM »
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There's a million other ways the final Crait Luke-Kylo climax can be done, yet they settle on the most convoluted, rules-breaking nonsensically baffling way to do it and people gobble it up.

I have to ask...what rules are being broken, here?
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Offline Iaera

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #66 on: 01/11/18, 05:13:17 PM »
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  • We have never seen a living person make an ethereal appearance somewhere they're not.
  • All prior such ethereal appearances are distinctly ghostly, blue, and intangible.

These first two points are relatively minor, and "adding" these to the canon aren't necessarily game-breaking. They are inconsistent, though. I suppose one could explain that fake-Luke isn't ghostly because he isn't dead yet, or something, and the living aspect of it could be described as pushing the envelope on some sort of mass hallucinatory mind trick. A stretch, but by themselves I wouldn't complain too much.

  • Prior ethereal stuff has generally only been noticed by those attuned to the Force. There's no indication Han or Wedge or anyone else saw Obi-wan, Yoda, and Anakin at the end of Return of the Jedi.
  • Fake-Luke has a physical presence and imparts (also fake??) physical objects to people.
  • The one saving grace to this, their attempt to impose some Rules on it by having it kill Luke, makes no damn sense!

These points open cans of worms that cannot really be closed again, especially in concert with Yoda's newfound Druid spell list. If Fake Ghost People are a thing now, this has a lot of pretty unfortunate ramifications. Every scene involving a Force user henceforth has this weird shadow cast over it: is this person real? The OT kept ghosts in check, they were nothing more than voices from beyond the grave who could only be seen or heard by those in the know. Now there's no real distinction between alive and dead, you can just show up wherever and cast lightning bolts and give people fake (conjured?) objects.

It's power creep, it's inconsistent power creep, and it breaks a coherency to the universe in much the same way as the hyperspace-ramming does.

And, again, it violates a literary Occam's Razor (Chekov's Bayonet?). It's like some sort of absurdist, Hitchhiker's Guide kind of fiction: Given a logical solution and progression of events that is teased earlier in the story (Lift X-wing, fly to defense of Crait, face Kylo), the story deliberately eschews that and invents an absurd, out-of-left-field progression of events instead that no one could have predicted not because it's clever, but because the writers inserted something that was never previously possible. Like a bad M. Night Shyamalan movie inserting a gratuitous "twist" for twist's sake. Psych!
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Offline Auryn

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #67 on: 01/11/18, 06:15:41 PM »
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...I mean, I've seen this kind of shit in the EU a _lot_ >.>;

Same with what happened to Leia, EU books and material have shown Jedi using the Force to preserve themselves for short amounts of time in the void of space. I guess that's why the show of force power in this film doesn't bother me. Compared to some things from the EU, it's pretty tame.
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Offline LVT

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #68 on: 01/11/18, 06:20:00 PM »
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It's true, did happen in the EU. Felt a lot more dramatic and risky there though, and therefore written well.
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Offline Karmic

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #69 on: 01/11/18, 06:31:44 PM »
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1-What is the "Checkov's gun" analogy mean? I have watched the ST movies many times (the new ones though not as much) but i'm not sure what this is suppose to mean/imply?

Chekov's gun has nothing to do with Star Trek's Chekov (although the Star Trek character might be named after him? "Pavel Andreievich Chekov" vs "Anton Pavlovich Chekhov", kiiiiiinda similar...).

It's a reference to the Russian Playwright Anton Chekov regarding set-up and payoff. The point of "Chekov's gun" is that if you make a point about a gun on the wall in Act 1, it better as hell get fired in Act 2 or 3, otherwise it should be removed from the play because there's no point to it. Streamline the story, avoid including elements that don't actually impact the plot at all.

In this specific case, seeing the submerged X-Wing is a note that could be read as a set-up for a future payoff: The ship's still around, that means there's good odds it'll get used later on. IF not, then it shouldn't have been included because it's a wasted shot in an already long movie.

There's alternate explanations, and things like Red Herrings, misdirection and being used for other purposes do exist, but it is a bit odd that the X-Wing gets shown off and just... sits there, corroding for the rest of the film.

AHHH! Ok thanks!

And great, so now I know who to blame every tv show and movie I see that stupid trope used...  I actually prefer things not being so obvious and knowing extraneous details that may not help the plot along, but provide context and background etc...

I HATE it when shows/movies show XYZ and you KNOW "Oh well that's how its going to happen..." immediately.  Kinda like in a lot of "clever" mystery shows where the bad guy ends up being that nameless salesperson they interviewed in the first ten minutes... that they had no idea had anythign to do with anything and the only time you saw them in the show was in that interview... until the climax in the last ten minutes.

So yea I hate chekov's gun... lol.

But I don't feel the xwing's appearance was a waste so *shrugs*

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Offline blingdenston

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #70 on: 01/11/18, 07:04:02 PM »
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A). Obi-Wan uses illusory powers twice in Star Wars (once to replicate the roar of a krayt dragon to drive off the Raiders assaulting Luke, secondly to distract the Stormtroopers on the Death Star so he can turn off the tractor beam holding the Falcon in place).

These are less spectacular, but they affect folks who aren't attuned to the Force (though, isn't everyone connected to the Force? Isn't that the point?) These also are not miracles that the legendary hero pulls off at the cost of his own life (that, for Obi-Wan, is transubstantiating into a pile of clothes in order to prove the same point to Vader that Luke is proving to Kylo.)

B). During one of their psychic-Skype calls, Kylo mentions that Rey couldn't possibly be doing it, as the strain would kill her. Performing a massive-super-ultra-miracle like illusory bilocation strains Luke, to the point of death. Psychic powers are not new to this series.

C). The submerged X-Wing is a sleight-of-hand AND a callback. We see Luke peer at the X-Wing, we know that the Resistance is at its last moments...here he comes! The mighty hero! The legendary warrior, Luke Skywalker! He's gonna save the day!

Meanwhile, we think about Dagobah. About Yoda's lesson to Luke about what the Force is, what is possible. It plants the seed in our mind, in the fertile soil of our prior experience.

The promise is made...and at once betrayed, and exceeded. Maybe it would be happier, for many of us, if Luke HAD dive-bombed those AT-M6s, destroyed the battering ram cannon, hopped out and flashed the ol' green saber, had a big to-do with Kylo while everyone cheered. But, and Orell made this point brilliantly, that is impossible. It is impossible in the world we find ourselves in for that to have happened.

I've made no secret of my thoughts vis a vis ROTJ and TFA...to me, ROTJ is not the conquest of Camelot, it is the return from Avalon...not the beginning of a new kingdom, but the return from myth of heroes to defeat evil once and for all. But, that's not what we got. They wanted new Star Wars...they wanted to conform to the classic Star Wars beats. They wanted an Empire, a Rebellion, a hidden Jedi Master, a Death Star all of that...so, ROTJ is not the happy ending.

In my perfect dream-of-dreams, 'new Star Wars' would be different. ROTJ would remain the end. Maybe a new continuity...maybe just side-stories like Rogue One and Solo. But, that isn't the real world we live in, and it definitely ain't the world that JJ and the Lucasfilm crew wanted. So, we get TFA. And, inevitably, the question is...why is Luke hiding? Why would he quit?

What's the good answer to that, the one that satisfies folks? 'I had to drop out...my blood has Crimson Midichlorians in it, if Snoke drinks it he gets Force Tsunami Level Four'? 'I'm training these Porgs to pilot Mouse Droids to infiltrate the Knights of Rens' spaceships and give them lethal enemas'? 'I've been trying to read these books, figure out the secrets of Gorgolan-style lightsaber fighting to counter Kylo Ren's Megaslash Form'? There isn't a satisfying answer for why Luke Skywalker would quit like that.

So, it's unsatisfying. He failed. He didn't have what it took. His faith faltered, and he felt it had failed him and he failed it. He gave up. He became the Knight of Infinite Resignation, surrendering to the knowledge that no swordsman or wizard or leader can turn the tide of darkness, that he helped midwife the darkness.

And then, after everything we learn, after everything we see...he stops giving up. He appears at the literal point of no return, and turns the tide. He becomes the Knight of Faith...embracing the absurd, the impossible, and becoming free of the shackles of the world. No one can stand against the First Order? Then everyone must. He transcends the 'rules', transcends expectation, he wins...and, and I think this is most important, he does it in a manner that reminds us of the power of faith (the Force), and passes the baton to the new heroes.

If this breaches the rules for you...hey, I get it. I'm still pissed off about Batman having bulletproof cowl-armor and, sometimes, a hologram-mask that lets him appear as sexy banktellers or whatever. To me, however, this was a miraculously satisfying end to an unsatisfying set-up (not a huge TFA fan), pitched perfectly visually, aurally, and emotionally. If he'd developed Force-flight and used Electric Judgment to defeat the First Order, I'd be right here with you. But, I don't agree. I respect! Don't agree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvOqgtnrPAw
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Offline Iaera

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #71 on: 01/11/18, 07:41:03 PM »
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I'm not necessarily opposed to Luke failing -- I get that. I'd be on board with it had it not been in exact opposition with his established character. I don't expect Luke to be perfect, and I think it would have been wonderfully fertile ground to talk about the perpetual cycle of each generation failing the next, and the next generation resolving to do better, only to themselves fail the generation after that. Two steps forward, one step back, the inexorable march of civilisation toward better enlightenment.

For what it's worth, I actually really liked the execution of showing that failure. The different points of view and slow revelation of truths was, I thought, an excellent device to employ, and worthy of sitting alongside many of the storytelling devices Lucas used, such as employing C-3P0 and R2-D2 as the central POV characters in A New Hope. But the writing of Luke (and most of the plot, for that matter) wrankles here.

Anyway, thanks for the reply! Your perspective is always enlightening Bling. But in this case I just can't get on board the TLJ train.
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Offline Cyone

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #72 on: 01/12/18, 12:46:31 AM »
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Nor can I, I'm afraid, though god knows I wanted to.

Offline Orell

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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #73 on: 03/07/18, 11:38:59 PM »
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Regarding this deleted scene, because I don't want to dodge spoilers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=97&v=HjoJqZDjxgI

What I like about it is a bunch of things:

1: It gives Gwendolyn Christie a chance to, you know, fucking act outside of her voice. So much good acting done, even if all we see is an eye.

2: It ties up a dangling plot thread before the character is axed. I just kinda like that sorta thing, especially since there was no hint of an explanation in TFA about why Phasma went along with it.

3: It outright axes a character. No "oh who knows if she survived i mean i don't see a body" BS, especially since it's pretty clear that no one really has an idea what to do with her, along with all the other villains.

4: It ties into one of the more subtle points in TLJ, about how... well, pathetic fascists often are once all that PR hype gets stripped away.

Hux? He's a firey, powerful speaker... when he's giving a speech to a crowd, but he's just a cowardly idiot in reality. Kylo? Hell, reams were already written about TFA about how great a character he was because of how much of a Vader Fanboy he was. Snoke was powerful and smart, sure, but still oh, so mortal.

And now Phasma: Lots of showy authority, no actual backbone when push comes to shove.

Star Wars has always had an issue with how the Empire's so much cooler than the rebels. From Vader to Stormtroopers to Darth "I'm the only good part about this film" Maul, they've always had trouble where the bad guys are cool... so, I approve of scenes that smack down that unfortunate result, that show that the people trying so, so hard to seem cool and powerful, are really anything but.

As for the whole "Good Guy Filibuster" bit? To quote my favorite author of all time...

Quote
From Men at Arms, by Terry Pratchett
"If you have to look along the shaft of an arrow from the wrong end, if a man has you entirely at his mercy, then hope like hell that man is an evil man. Because the evil like power, power over people, and they want to see you in fear. They want you to know you're going to die. So they'll talk. They'll gloat. They'll watch you squirm. They'll put off the moment of murder like another man will put off a good cigar. So hope like hell your captor is an evil man. A good man will kill you with hardly a word."

I mean, it's not completely true, duh, but it's a good enough rationalization for me :).
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Re: the last jedi [spoiler city]
« Reply #74 on: 03/08/18, 12:17:03 AM »
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I hope they bring back that plotline for IX and have Finn start a fullblown rebellion within the first order's ranks. I need to see Finn doing something good that'll redeem his character since he, poe, and rose basically get the resistance destroyed.