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Author Topic: Accepting consequences in rp  (Read 7141 times)

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Offline Orell

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Re: Accepting consequences in rp
« Reply #60 on: 12/19/13, 12:59:52 PM »
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I wouldn't say that you spend all of your time in the Improv part of things, Ilireth... because I don't think anyone does. Improv and Storytelling are both part of RP, everyone does both, its just a matter of degrees.

If someone only Improv's? Then they have no real idea where their character's going, what sort of future he'd have, nothing beyond the immediate "This is stuff that's happening now" sense. Ironically, the character can become static without a sense of how that character is changing over time.

If someone only does Stortelling stuff? Then they can become a chore to RP with, with an annoying sense that your involvement is just getting in the way of what their character is wanting to do, and if you do that yourself, you start feeling stifled by the meddling by the other people around you.

They're two parts of the same whole, just in different measures in different people that RP.

The thing is, as I mentioned in the shoutbox earlier, different people are different and do things in different ways. We have different comfort zones and wheelhouses when it comes to RP. Some prefer combat, some prefer cantinas. Some prefer carefully thought out character arcs, some just want to just act in the moment.

No approach is perfect. There is no universal good method, because there cannot BE a universally good method, because not all of us are going into this for the same reasons. It's something that's hard to remember (I know I fall victim to it myself), but its extremely important about these sorts of discussions, because while we do have to all RP in the same world, so to speak, there's not going to be a single set of rules that will work for this.
Character List:

Pub side: Lien Orell, Kyri Orell, Shaantil (possibly Dumas), Norland, Everen (bank alt ATM), Quarashaa (Pub version of the real Quarasha), Merrant

Imp Side: Quarasha, Effet Ornell, Arazel, Zedney, Zhel, Asori-Alnas

Ilireth

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Re: Accepting consequences in rp
« Reply #61 on: 12/19/13, 01:13:08 PM »
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If someone only Improv's? Then they have no real idea where their character's going, what sort of future he'd have, nothing beyond the immediate "This is stuff that's happening now" sense.
*Cough* Actually, yeah, that's me in a nutshell. Only difference is that this is not a negative to me. It's the source of excitement.

Ironically, the character can become static without a sense of how that character is changing over time.
This can, and has, happened - but generally speaking only when there's no one willing to interact with me. Improv feeds off of the involvement of others so it falls a little flat when you're left to progress on your own.

Offline Orell

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Re: Accepting consequences in rp
« Reply #62 on: 12/19/13, 01:22:38 PM »
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If someone only Improv's? Then they have no real idea where their character's going, what sort of future he'd have, nothing beyond the immediate "This is stuff that's happening now" sense.
*Cough* Actually, yeah, that's me in a nutshell. Only difference is that this is not a negative to me. It's the source of excitement.

Ironically, the character can become static without a sense of how that character is changing over time.
This can, and has, happened - but generally speaking only when there's no one willing to interact with me. Improv feeds off of the involvement of others so it falls a little flat when you're left to progress on your own.

You had Ilireth abducted for a while, you've kicked of Quar's activities on Erini, you've done tons of events with the Silence Keepers and Architect...

That's what I meant by it. Not all storytelling is long-term, heavily defined character arcs and dark pasts revealing themselves with horrific results. A lot of the time, it's a simple as "I want Kyri to go out into the wide, scary universe and harden into a tougher person", or "I'm moving Lien to a more behind the scenes role instead of being a front line soldier".

I don't think it's either improv or storytelling. They complement each other quite well, it's often about finding that personal balance that suits you best.

EDIT: ...why, yes, I do find it somewhat ironic that I'm somewhat derailing a thread that's the product of a previously derailed thread...
Character List:

Pub side: Lien Orell, Kyri Orell, Shaantil (possibly Dumas), Norland, Everen (bank alt ATM), Quarashaa (Pub version of the real Quarasha), Merrant

Imp Side: Quarasha, Effet Ornell, Arazel, Zedney, Zhel, Asori-Alnas

Offline Crimsen

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Re: Accepting consequences in rp
« Reply #63 on: 12/19/13, 02:29:39 PM »
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If someone only Improv's? Then they have no real idea where their character's going, what sort of future he'd have, nothing beyond the immediate "This is stuff that's happening now" sense.
*Cough* Actually, yeah, that's me in a nutshell. Only difference is that this is not a negative to me. It's the source of excitement.

Ironically, the character can become static without a sense of how that character is changing over time.
This can, and has, happened - but generally speaking only when there's no one willing to interact with me. Improv feeds off of the involvement of others so it falls a little flat when you're left to progress on your own.

You had Ilireth abducted for a while, you've kicked of Quar's activities on Erini, you've done tons of events with the Silence Keepers and Architect...

That's what I meant by it. Not all storytelling is long-term, heavily defined character arcs and dark pasts revealing themselves with horrific results. A lot of the time, it's a simple as "I want Kyri to go out into the wide, scary universe and harden into a tougher person", or "I'm moving Lien to a more behind the scenes role instead of being a front line soldier".

I don't think it's either improv or storytelling. They complement each other quite well, it's often about finding that personal balance that suits you best.

EDIT: ...why, yes, I do find it somewhat ironic that I'm somewhat derailing a thread that's the product of a previously derailed thread...

Quick... Say something on track like.... Why do characters never suffer the consequences of illness after hanging out on places like Quesh or Hutta?!

Offline blingdenston

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Re: Accepting consequences in rp
« Reply #64 on: 12/19/13, 10:26:53 PM »
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Offline Karmic

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Re: Accepting consequences in rp
« Reply #65 on: 12/19/13, 10:34:53 PM »
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..or look back at Explosions.

*nods*

((ok and seriously I have other things to say.. but its almost 1 am here and I'm tired.. so I could only muster enough for a awesome comments... :aww: the rest will come later..))

History Posts:  Her Backstory , Darth-Hood

Offline NovaZero

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Re: Accepting consequences in rp
« Reply #66 on: 12/21/13, 02:05:04 AM »
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I would say that, moving on that, it's the interpreting of what is story-telling and Improv.

100% Improvisation and 0% storytelling is just a freeform without context. I recall Ilireth mentioning context being a thing -- and I would extrapolate that to putting it in mind that context is... a lot of things.

Your character is context.

The situation is context.

On their own, those things all have context. That context is further enriched when you put them together. I don't see Orell or Ilireth's views on the matter being at all different... rather, it's the interpreting of each other's opinions that's different.

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Offline Karmic

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Re: Accepting consequences in rp
« Reply #67 on: 12/24/13, 01:13:21 PM »
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And to really get it back on topic... ;).

Yes, I realize its been a few days.. I was working and busy... bite me for bringing it back up.

There is something I wanted to clarify/add for those who are reading this whole thing for actual advice and ideas... 

(bolded or ALL CAPS for emphasis, not yelling or intended to convey any type of grr emotion..promise :))

Yes, there are people in this community, like Shangstung, who prefer to fly-by-the seat of their pants (shall we call it..I know that's not entirely accurate but summing up his stance on having as little OOC interference/information as possible..) and don't wish to find out or discuss OOCily...what's going on or what might/about to happen..  And he is *not* the only one, I've run into a number of people just like him.  To some of them, (cuz I won't lump them all in one group) it spoils the fun and they are ok with playing out whatever happens...regardless of what happens.. tot heir character.  And that's great.

And.. THAT IS FINE!!


Yes
, there are people in this community, more like myself, or Orell, or Seraphie, who do want some sort of OOC discussoin/heads up/whatever when things start happening in RP that could lead to bigger consequences.. of *any* type (I don't just mean here people wanting a headsup if they are kidnapped...  I'm including Anything that could lead to major consequences for someone Icily ..and that doesn't just mean physical injury...).  Who very much are not ok with entering into situations that could end up placing them in a position they don't intend/want for their character - *not* because they are refusing consequences, *not* because they did something mean to someone and don't want to face the music, but because there are many versions of that music and everyone needs to be knowing the tune... and that' s great too!!

And.. THAT IS FINE!  Too!


The problem arises, and the purpose of this thread is to try and temper/avoid these problems - when these two "basic" types of Rpers come together RP and start IC trouble.

Because if you don't respect the wishes of the latter, and default to the playstyle of the Former - then the latter won't continue to engage with RP with the Former, over time. The First type, who doesn't "see a point" (I won't use the word stupid again because its insulting and offensive...) to the OOC contact, will eventually, have little to no one else to play with from the 2nd group.

The two groups become more and more isolationist, until everyone implodes from narrowing down their options too much.  And then people start looking around and wondering where all the RP is period, not just conflict, but any RP.

~~~
(TLDR)

The only way to keep these two types of RPers playing together, cooperatively, having fun, in order to have the most amount of RP going back and forth possible - is to respect that if the player across from you whispers/PMs/tells you they want to have some OOC talk ...  even if you think its unnecessary...  to allow them to have that talk with you. 

At least in my opinion.


~~~

I wanted to put this divide here because I'm going to give examples by what I mean when I say "a heads up/discussion" about things.  Because I think that's unclear... and some people may be thinking I'm asking for an entire debriefing of their plans in such a discussion and that's not what I mean.  So in an effort to bring both halves of this together I wanted to use a couple of in game examples of what I'm talking about (and I can only speak to me but I imagine a good number of us "Hey ooc heads up" people would be happy with this as well...) so people can understand that no.. actually.. I'm not meaning a whole discussion of the plotline.

Some people may not need these examples and so you can skip all the rest of this.  But if you're someone who "doesn't get the point".. .or if you're someone who just immediately balks at the idea of letting someone know OOCily what your plans might be... this might help you find a comfortable middle ground so that you too can have more options of players to RP with instead of just the ones who do it your way.  And I DO MEAN middle ground - as in consequences both sides are OK with.

To me, this is a *perfect* example of a "Head's up" ooc query in an ongoing RP plot. I hope Semah won't mind the use of her conversation... :) Pretty sure I'm safe.

Example:

In Rping out the rest of the plotline involved with the "Deep Space Dailiances" (By Tae event) in leading up to the big finale-fight - Semah and Karmic have had some talks about how to handle Evil-Tae, given their various ideas/strengths/etc.  All good.. blahblahblah.

In having those talks, Semah is orchestrating a little event for a few of us, where we're going to go retrieve some stuff she needs for her "attack" on Evil-Tae.(trying to give as little details as possible so as not to spoil anyting for Semah..lol).  I, Icily and OOcily, told Semah that Karmic is very much interested in helping out however she can and would totally be willing to go on that retreieval mission.  When Semah brought the idea to me OOCily, I told her oocily "oh yes definitely let Karimc know I wanna go too!!" so that way an obvious "in" would be provided to my character to hook into such a mission.

So that's one type of head'sup you can give someone - just letting them know you're open to participating. I believe I've done this several times with Malagant as well, which led to awesome and great adventures for Karmic and Mal and new turns in their relationship - simply because I went OOC and let him know I was interested in joining with his plans I read on the forums and so if he wanted to involve anyone else ..let's get together and figure out how and do it.

In that same example - later on, Semah whispered me and asked me straight up, (basic paraphrasing) "Hey is there anything you have questions about with what's going to happen at this event. Is there anything you want to know about what I'm planning that might effect Karmic?"  So there..right THERE.. is a great way to give that "Head's up" again, BEFORE things get started..  A simple check-in.  "Hey, did you have any questions or concerns."

What I wrote back?  A simple, "I don't need to know everything or the specifics, I prefer to be surprised as much as possible.  But if YOU think there's anything that would greatly effect Karmic or harm her, please let me know what you're thinking.  I'm just wanting to know details about the event that would end up hurting/changing her obviously.." (again paraphrased.. my response was like two sentences with that idea..). 

That's all the head's up that was required.  As there doesn't appear to be that going on in this event, Semah had nothing further to share.  And that's fine with me.  The concern was addressed, and I let her know specifically what I wanted information on - so that if the situation changes she'll know to let me know what's going on.  The rest, I'm perfectly happy and excited to let play out how it plays out.

 I didn't ask about all the details, the plot, the subplot, everything that might happen in the event that hasn't occurred yet that might effect Karmic in any way.  None of those details.  I like being surprised as much as the "fly by the seat of your pants" guy likes surprises...   until/unless you get to something that could have "sizeable consequences" for Karmic and then...its not that I don't like playing those out, I just want to make sure everything goes smooth and makes sense and is comfortable for all involved.

Another example - and this one for a plot that never "took place" because of said OOC discussion. 

Karmic was pissed off at Darth XYZ and was trying to find ideas for revenge.  Another character suggested a Kaggath, which Karmic refused outright as going too far.  OOCily, I clarified for the person involved that because (as I understand it) a Kaggath ends only with the DEATH of the opposite character and that I wasn't going to declare something Icily that I already knew OOCily was not only not going to be how that plotline ended (the other person, nor myself, would be willing to die), and that oocily we'd be stuck having to "RP ourselves out of that corner" in a way that made sense.

I forsaw the ooc complications of the IC suggestion and let the other person know my legitimate, sensical, reasons as to why I thought that would be a bad idea/plot to try and play out.  IF the other player had wanted to insist on having fun with a Kaggath, I would have been open to the idea of everything included besides calling it Kaggath, because the way I understand Kaggaths, that yes someone has to die for it to end. And if either player is unwilling for their character to die, then to me, oocily, that's what is "pointless" to go through.  Only through OOC conversation *first* would such a scenario be able to work, once everyone was on the same page.

If said person wanted to play out a Kaggath, declared a Kaggath, and went after me ICily as if it was Kaggath - and ONLY THEN addressed me OOCILY (Or rather, when I found out about it I'd be going to them OOCILY to go wtf?).. major headaches and issues.  Because now everything either has to be retconned entirely (as there is no Kaggath, unless the other player was using it for a suicide plot...lol), or everyone/everything that's been involved so far has to now be told "ok everything but don't call it a Kaggath". 

That would have inevitably led to at least several hours-long OOC conversations, general headaches, and probably a few people with a negative/bad taste in their mouths.  Even if unfairly and unjustly - on whomever they blamed for "Spoiling their fun".  Even if the two people who worked it out were totally fine and happy; doesn't mean that others wouldn't take their own assumptions and opinions from seeing that play out (someone declaring a Kaggath and then basically UNdeclaring it... publically...) and think negative/bitter/harsh thoughts about one or the other (or BOTH) participants, that would lead that person to not wanting to RP with either of them in the future. *just because* of what they *thought* they saw happening...  Is it right? Well no.  But that is very human, none the less. (no judgement on it, it is what it is...its just how people operate...)

All of which.. avoided by not waiting until the problem arose OOC and addressing it then (as the first group prefers), but addressing it at the suggestion of the plot-for-conflict-purposes.

((Btw, yes, there have been several Kaggaths declared on this Server between Sith, and some of them have ended in character deaths, some of them have not... Me, when finding out the players of the Kaggath have no intention of killing off their characters... either of them...wonder WTF they use that lore-infused justification for going at each other... LOL)).

~~~~

TLDR:

Asking for a OOC heads up/notification doesn't mean someone is asking for your entire plans in all detail.  But unless you talk to them OOCily and see what it is they are looking for, or just worried about, you won't know.  And as a result of not talking OOC, you alienate part of your community - with whom otherwise, with very small effort, you could instead open up your RP community and have way more funs RP togethers.

I personally, am very concerned, that instead of trying to have brief OOC talks to work out our confusions and worries, the people in the two "groups" in *this* community, are just growing further and further apart.

Because the people who truly think "its stupid" to have an OOC head'sup are downing/hating and berrating the people who are asking for it - in the moment they are trying to ask for it.  I *know* this is true because I've seen this happen to myself repeatedly by different Rpers who post here, and I see it here on the forums - hints of it in this very thread. 

And that is not cool.  And *that* is what is destroying conflictual RP in this community.  And *that* will be what destroys this community entirely... once enough people alienate themselves from enough other people.  Simply because they can't be bothered to discussing something OOCily for 10 minutes first.

In my opinion... because of what has happened to me.. directly (and indirectly, when others come to me to vent of this problem). I see it.  And it saddens me.   :umm: :sigh: :cry:

And because of this concern, I post.  I post.. I post.. I beg.. I explain in 3523 different ways from Sunday. Because I want to save it all.   :aww:  :grin:

It really is that easy.  Or at least, seems easy to me *shrugs*.
(AND LOOK I USED TLDRs!!!..three of them.. but.. yes it is a long post and each section is entirely different...!)



History Posts:  Her Backstory , Darth-Hood