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Poll

So to be super clear firm on the idea:  Kwenn: Local Pub, Fistfights OK, Weapon-fights get booted outside.  Slopes: Shiny Slum, Anything goes. Barge: Upscale, no fights, security system.

I like the compromise this ruleset provides.
18 (60%)
This ruleset is still too limiting on rp fights.
2 (6.7%)
This ruleset will allow too many fights.
0 (0%)
I'm really not interested in compromises.
2 (6.7%)
Really don't care, whatever's decided is good with me.
8 (26.7%)

Total Members Voted: 26

Voting closed: 12/18/13, 10:59:30 PM

Author Topic: Fighting on "Sacred Ground" (con't topic)  (Read 6458 times)

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Offline Karmic

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Fighting on "Sacred Ground" (con't topic)
« on: 12/02/13, 06:19:59 PM »
0 Show voters
Wanted to move this here because I didn't want to hijack the other thread anymore than we already had *grins at Saber* annndddd... cuz well I figure it must needs to be discussed as it continually comes up.

And I mean this when I say, I am totally open to suggestions on better ways to handle this/work it/etc....  in ANY Case.. Here are the posts that started the conversation - I pasted them over here cuz I can't move posts out of threads and so... I can do this... :)

Saber:
Quote
We just need more things like that, and perhaps a bit more leniency on the issue of Bar-fights and other combat. I understand not everyone wants to be attacked in the Cantina all the time, but once in a while a good Bar-fight or duel is fun.

And I responded, lengthily as I do:

Quote
And again and again... I can explain why "every once in a while" can't really be controlled.  Did you know that I believe three weeks ago some group came in and blew up Kwenn cantina?  At least that's what I hear happened after I left for the night :).

This wasnt' a group that scheduled anything. It wasn't a group that checked with anyone.  They just Rped it and blew up the cantina and ...whatever.

Point being, if YOU are not there that night YOU may think "Hey this once in a while bar fight no big deal" but if YOU aren't there every night then you can't know that maybe there was a fight here last night.. or two nights ago.. or a big fight a week ago.. or the place got exploded last week...    so that "once in awhile" becomes "every week"..

And people stop coming.

Heck, even that one event on one night LATE at Kwenn resulted in people wondering the next week if they wanted to go back.

Several night last week during Imperial "Free form cantina" RP time (time where nothing specific is scheduled imp side heh so there's no security and no one there to play police) I saw people over and over and over again complaining in OOC chat about how someone is picking a fight everynight...

Your right, if the fights could stay once a month that would be great.  But they DO NOT. 

Its not like we ever say no one's a allowed to fight.  We only ask people to literally walk 5 feet away and fight.  And those people who WANT to SEE or be involved in the fight can FOLLOW.

Have your big brush up in the cantina and walk outside to fight. See how many follow you.  Guess what, when not everyone follows you out.. not everyone wanted to see it or experience it or be a part of it.  That's how many people would rather not be forced to experience it while you have YOUR fun in the middle of their fun.  (and depending on who the characters are, sometimes yea the whole bar will go outside but that is really depending on what they saw in the bar and who the people already are heh...)

*I* totally understand that fights and duels and bar fights can be fun. I agree. They can be.   

But I've also seen the other side.  And unforuntately, inconsistent rules like "well sometimes we can have a fight" don't really work.    And it just means that the few of us around here who are actually trying to keep "Sacred Ground" for others have even more problems.  I mean as much fun as you don't have on the nights you show up and you know you can't fight, trust me, for those of us trying to enforce such things.. its not that much fun being on the other end either.  Me, I keep it up because I know I'm doing right by others who thank me and tell me they appreciate it.  But honestly if it was just me... I wouldn't even try anymore.. because no, its not fun on the other side either. 

But in the end, the enforcement of the rules never works when the people to enforce them aren't around.  So if you try to start a fight in a cantina on a night when none of us mean old fight police are around (said with a grin..) then there's no one to stop you. *shrugs*

Saber.. you had a fighting event that was for awhile going pretty well ...  tell me why did it stop? 

((And all YOUs in this are NOT Saber, they are anyone feeling 'hey why don't we just have a fight here this one time...' I hope Saber knows I love him and I miss him being around more out in the community... he just said the magic words :))

Saber's LAST POST to which this thread was then created from....

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I'd like to address a few of those points you made Karmic, and in advance in case I accidentally get a bit rude, know that I mean this with the utmost respect.

While I am sick of -strictly- cantina nights, I personally liked that there was actually RP in the Slippery Slopes, anymore people only go to the barge to RP on Nar Shaddaa. I personally think this is a bit weird that we use a barge but not a cantina on the planet (speaking of course by the logic that a cantina is a bit more contemporary than a pleasure barge, not saying that partying on a pleasure barge is weird, because it's not). I'd like to see more non-cantina/barge events, but you know, Slippery Slopes is nice too.

Now, on to the fighting thing, My problem isn't so much that you don't want a fight to happen, it's the way that it is enforced in such a way as "Our way or the highway". You shouldn't tell people how they should RP, because it's a two way street, acting with respect and respecting others RP choices.

Now, keep in mind, I don't think that a true bar fight has everyone whipping out pistols and lightsabers and bombs and everyone killing everyone. A true bar fight would likely be a drunken fist-fight, and if someone pulled a gun, it would be one of those 'Oh snap' moments. See, with a fist-fight, it can happen in relatively close proximity to perfectly peaceful groups with little danger of bystanders being hurt.

Telling people that they -have- to take it outside is honestly unrealistic and too controlling. You said something, Karmic, about having a brush-up in the cantina then taking it outside, how often do you see that in real life fights? It happens once in a while, but most of the time, fights are short and happen quickly and emotionally, there isn't any "Let's take this outside" when you're angry to the point of punching.

Now of course, an ideal fight code in RP is unlikely to happen, but still, you can only control yourself. You can't expect everyone to listen to you just because you have the backing of the majority of the out-spoken community, especially since many RP'ers aren't a part of this community solidly.

/endrant

And now for the rest of the topic...

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Offline Semah

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Re: Fighting on "Sacred Ground" (con't topic)
« Reply #1 on: 12/02/13, 06:33:45 PM »
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Brief comment on a topic that deserves more:

Our RP barfights are not short fistfights. They're often long, drawn-out, attention-grabbing lightsaber-lightning-blaster-missile-morelightning shows that can last half an hour or more, especially if rolling.

When things are boring and slow, I say bring them on. When things are busy, however...  (but that's an OOC concern, not an IC one).

Offline Saberlain

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Re: Fighting on "Sacred Ground" (con't topic)
« Reply #2 on: 12/02/13, 06:56:15 PM »
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Brief comment on a topic that deserves more:

Our RP barfights are not short fistfights. They're often long, drawn-out, attention-grabbing lightsaber-lightning-blaster-missile-morelightning shows that can last half an hour or more, especially if rolling.

When things are boring and slow, I say bring them on. When things are busy, however...  (but that's an OOC concern, not an IC one).
Yeah, and honestly, a true full-on combat is rather stupid to hold in a cantina, better to ask the person you want to fight OOCly to walk outside and ambush them. But a nice fist-fight (which would be longer in game, but short  by most standards) would be welcome I say.

And as for fighting on so-called 'Sacred-ground', well I understand if someone says that ICly and is like "Hey, take it outside!" But that's only IC, one shouldn't expect to be able to say that oocly and get people to happily comply.

Offline Nascuyan

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Re: Fighting on "Sacred Ground" (con't topic)
« Reply #3 on: 12/02/13, 07:05:51 PM »
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Quote
And as for fighting on so-called 'Sacred-ground', well I understand if someone says that ICly and is like "Hey, take it outside!" But that's only IC, one shouldn't expect to be able to say that oocly and get people to happily comply.

Quite right Saber. I'll interject here as a point for discussion: A conflict is more intense and character influencing RP than idle cantina chat and should be respected as such with those participating in idle chat giving the combat a wide berth rather than the other way around.

Offline Karmic

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Re: Fighting on "Sacred Ground" (con't topic)
« Reply #4 on: 12/02/13, 07:29:57 PM »
+1 Show voters
I did want to clarify before continuing..

I used the term Sacred Ground and NOT "Cantina" because this isn't a topic that just has to do with inside cantinas.. it has to do with, to me, any "event" surroundings people are wanting to be kept peaceful/independent/whatever for the sake of cross-faction stuff..

Its not JUST Cantina's ((as the barge is obviously not a cantina :)) and its not ONLY in Cantina's.. and even having said that... its not even every Cantina  (so far just the ones in "Hutt" Space, to me/Karmic - only those that require cross-faction visits... Karmic's never once tried to stop a fight on fleet or in DK.. ;))

Just wanted the topic broad enough to cover situations that weren't necessarily Cantina Ground...  Anyway on with my response...

~~~
Quote
accidentally get a bit rude, know that I mean this with the utmost respect.

I'm right there with you Saber. SO I wanted to QFT. I too am not at all meaning to come off rude or be insulting or sound snarky/smartass.  I am saying all of this and all previously with the utmost respect to all my peeps here and if something comes across as harsh or pissed off please ... call me on it or just ask what I meant.. cuz that's not how I mean it...  at all.

Because honestly, me myself and I, don't give two shakes of a Sith's arse whether or not people fight each other in game.. in RP.. in cantina's.. on the barge.. wherever.  Honestly don't care.  So... I don't mean to come off mad or pissed off or disrespectful... because I'm not any of those things :) about this.

And I REALLY DO and would LOVE to hear another community-friendly solution to this than what we've done so far...  some other type of compromise that would make both the fighters and the non-fighters happy.. or at least.. most of the time.. that works better than what we have right now...

Right now - FYI for everyone who DOES enforce this (or follows this rule - and I say those who DO because as I'll discuss further down - plenty of people don't...) - the rule is just "Please don't fight here in the space- take it outside the door/entrance/whatever and fight there."  That's the compromise that tries to make the most number of people happy..

Got a better solution - please... offer it up...

Quote
Now, on to the fighting thing, My problem isn't so much that you don't want a fight to happen, it's the way that it is enforced in such a way as "Our way or the highway". You shouldn't tell people how they should RP, because it's a two way street, acting with respect and respecting others RP choices.

But here's the thing - its.. not enforced that way. 

People can RP fight all they want, wherever they want, there's not a damn thing I, or anyone else, can do about it.  Just like there's no way the people who are fighting can control how those around them respond.  So if they fight and everyone ignores them... well...  its not "our way or the highway".. its the fact that no one else wants to participate.

We don't have the power or the ability to enforce any of this that way.  We can't make anyone leave a space.  We can /ignore them or whatever, we can (( argue all day in say)) like that... but we can't make anyone leave.  We can't even make anyone NOT fight... 

I've never told someone they aren't allowed to fight.  OOCILY...  they're allowed to do whatever they want.  (And accept the consequences of those choices...)

Karmic, Icily, has told them that because Karmic, Icily, believes they should not be allowed and can tell you 390285 reasons why and 23499 ways you're going to be stopped from fighting.  And its all just typed words.  Realistically I can't stop anyone from fighting... I can only ask for cooperation.... others around can join in (on both sides..and have..) that people comply with what the DARTH is asking of them (or two darths, or 4 jedi, or half the cantina...).

Plenty of times everything I've tried to do ICILY is entirely ignored.  At that point, I've done what I can ICily.. I can't stop anything from happening.  I can leave the situation (and have), and I can have Karmic get pissed off (she has) and leave (she has...). 

But other than that...  can't enforce a damn thing.  So I don't know if you meant something else by this - or whether you just don't like the fact that as "big chunk" of people show up they are ALL saying "HEY NOT ALLOWED!" which to me is telling you..guess what... you wanting to fight is a minority. (Hey again not saying you Saber, saying You as in people who want to start cantina fights..)

And I will also say - again - that if the select few of us (it really is just a few who try...) who aren't around to enforce this aren't there - it isn't enforced.  (just for emphasis) Many MANY nights there have been duels, fights, bitchslaps, force-battles, and outright cantina explosions...  while people are all hanging out.  Heck I can think of at least three major fights that have broken out INSIDE the Kwenn Cantina in the last 3 months.... right there we're going on 1 a month..  (and I know this because I wasn't there for any of them... I heard about it later though... )

If you aren't around to enjoy those random bar fights you enjoy..... I can't do anything about that.  :grin: Be around more? :)

Barge - no... try not to allow that to happen on the barge and there is MUCH more backlash there when it does.  But general Cantina'ing... 50/50 shot any night you show up you'll be able to pick a fight and fight it ALL out in the cantina and no one will say a word...

Does not of course mean you are, or are not, pissing them all off with your fighting.. just saying 50/50 shot someone will try to actively stop you (Like Karmic does...)

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You shouldn't tell people how they should RP, because it's a two way street, acting with respect and respecting others RP choices.

Absolutely totally agree 543% here.  And I requited it because I feel it needs addressing separately.

So My response to this, is, "Ok... so are we respecting the 2 people who for whatever reason want to have a bar fight and who feel its disrespectful to ask them to step outside the door? Or are we respecting the 2, 4, 10, 14 other people here who don't want to have to ignore/rp around the chat spam and around an event that icily they would not ignore but wanted to...?"

Ive seen this point made when others have brought up the fighting/not fighting in a cantina rule. And I just don't see how IN THIS situation its a one way street. (I.e. those of us enforcing sacred ground are telling people how to RP and those who want to RP fight are... NOT telling people how they have to RP?  To me you're having to enforce your desires upon another either way so its a mute validation?)

So please someone explain it to me.  To me, either way you go, that argument can be made to support the counterargument.

Quote
Now, keep in mind, I don't think that a true bar fight has everyone whipping out pistols and lightsabers and bombs and everyone killing everyone. A true bar fight would likely be a drunken fist-fight, and if someone pulled a gun, it would be one of those 'Oh snap' moments. See, with a fist-fight, it can happen in relatively close proximity to perfectly peaceful groups with little danger of bystanders being hurt.
...
about having a brush-up in the cantina then taking it outside, how often do you see that in real life fights? It happens once in a while, but most of the time, fights are short and happen quickly and emotionally, there isn't any "Let's take this outside" when you're angry to the point of punching.


(I grouped those as my response is related to all of that together... the parts I took out I responded to below :))

I agree, a true bar fight wouldn't necessarily mean everyone pulling blasters and lightsabers and going to town. (Well depending on where the bar is and who is fighting... could absolutely mean everyone pulls a gun...).  A IRL bar fight is a couple of drunk people screaming at each other and maybe a single punch is thrown...  because..

in IRL there are bouncers and cops - who actually show up - and remove people attempting to fight.. who you know, actually get bloody and drunk and hurt and at some point have to stop fighting...

in IRL there are TONS of fights that continue OUTSIDE the bar - absolfrekinlutely they are.  Because as soon as anyone starts yelling INSIDE the bar the bounces THROW THEM OUT... and they go yell and punch outside.  HOw many "shots fired OUTSIDE bar" or "fight OUTSIDE" bar or "people shot and killed OUTSIDE... bar.."  Because um.. yes.. that's exactly how it works.

Because inside people DONT PUT UP WITH IT AND KICK"EM OUT!  :grin:
(NOT Yelling.. emphasis..promise...)

The other side of this is that yes - ok..IRL small group of people at a bar start fighting, one or two people throw a swing, and no one jumps in. Its done, over with whatever.  Yup, sure, all over in five seconds. 

Um... in RP script - NOTHING is over in five seconds  :grin:  30 seconds of "bar fight" or even "slap fight" are 5 minutes of posting, if not 10-15 minutes of posting /say spam for literally.. 3 moves.  What is literally 30 seconds IRL takes 10 minutes to type out and respond to...and in that ten minutes is where the IRL bar fight analogy falls apart and the headache that is RP /say fighting in a group of people begins..

What happens then? Five friends jump in.  Three people defend a hit, 4 people defend 2 other hits.. the people actually fighting are still landing hits because they may or may not be actively ignoring the people trying to jump in and stop it/jump to their friend/ be the hero/ stop their friend from hitting that person again.. etc.etc.etc..  and then the (hey hey stop stop you can't do that you're godmodding I blocked that) OOC stuff starts up and OH BOY!!

Because its not a random group of strangers.  Because its Republic Vs. Empire vs. INdependents/others. And so you are better off comparing this to Bloods V Crips V Everyoneelse...

And I can promise you, if a Blood in a bar threw a punch at a Crip... it ain't gonna be over in 5 seconds, it ain't gonna be one punch...

Because if a Sith and Jedi start throwing punches... you honestly think everyone ICily can come up with a reason to ignore that and not jump in one side or another?  Not come to the defense of their fellow Sith/Jedi/Smuggler/Whatever...   the game factions aren't setup to be like an IRL bar fight.  Because most everyone IS playing allegiance to one side or another in some fashion...

But beyond that - the IRL comparison just doesn't work on many levels.  RP bar fights (fights period...violence..whatever... ) are nothing like IRL bar fights on almost every single level other than the fact that they are both arguments/fights/punches thrown in a public forum...

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Telling people that they -have- to take it outside is honestly unrealistic and too controlling.

I can't control anything.  People can listen.. I can ask.. I can beg.. I can plead.. I can tell them the logic and why we try to do this so they can understand.  But NOONE can control anyone here.

Now if Karmic ICily says "You have to take it outside..." not sure how that's being anything but... being IC and that character making that statement.  She can't enforce anything because.. .see below...  "HAVE!" to.. HAVE!To do what?  How am I, or anyone else, MAKING anyone HAVE to do anything - because I can't back it up at all... "HAVE!" to!? or else? What?  What happens if you don't?... because..

I can't control a single thing.  Karmic can throw lightening all day long.. and it controls absolutely nothing.

Because unlike IRL.. players ignore the bouncers, they ignore the Hutt security, they ignore everyone else, they ignore whomever they want to do what they want to do...  so I can run up to someone and go "HEY NOT ALLOWED 15 JEDI WILL COME DOWN UPON YOU..." and... nothing...   like literally... there are 5 Darths standing around the character /threatening them if they attack someone and they still attack and ignore... 

Quote
Now of course, an ideal fight code in RP is unlikely to happen, but still, you can only control yourself. You can't expect everyone to listen to you just because you have the backing of the majority of the out-spoken community, especially since many RP'ers aren't a part of this community solidly.

I don't expect everyone to listen to me.  For any reason.

I don't expect anyone to listen to me at all.  If you do, great, I hope you get something from it. And if you don't, I wish you all the best.  I'm gonna talk.. no one at all has to listen. 

What I see you really saying is two people started this concept, and because other people liked using it as a reason to stop other people from starting fights in public RP, they are using it too.  TWO PEOPLE came up with this "concept" on the spot ICILY... (Me.. Tae.. I can tell you the situation I can tell you the RP and I can tell you the randomness of the event...because I remember it clearly... and I remember what led up to it...) and we ran with it.  If the community, outspoken, majority, minority, silent types, whomever has decided to put into play on a greater scale - it isn't because I'm just that awesome.

Because I don't believe I am that awesome.  If people are enforcing it ..it means guess what... they don't want the fighting where they are RPing.  Thats' ALL that means.

I also don't believe that one person has that type of power on everyone here.  I mean what it sounds like you're saying there is, "Because Karmic doesn't like it everyone follows."  Um...  damn.. I have power.  But maybe that wasn't "You have the backing" Me... but "You have the backing" as in..um. I guess..  a few top people? 

(Asking that legitimately, I am not being a smart ass... :))

Yes, I know plenty of RPers who aren't part of this posting community.  I also know, that like you getting complaints from those that want to fight more, I get complaints that don't want to see it.  I get feedback from people who are sitting in the cantina wanting to stop a fight and wondering how they can make it stop by using NPCs or whatever (in whispers...I get this more than you expect..), I get whispers from people asking other people to come and stop someone from fighting in a cantina - like only XYZ People can stop the fighting..  :grin: ...

People who aren't part of this posting community, reacting negatively when they want to go have some fun cantina RP and are getting interrupted almost nightly... by... people wanting to rp out their fight/duel in a cantina and/or people walking into a cantina purely and only to START a fight...  (cuz I see it its part of their IC RP..they even say it...)

At the end of the day, I expect no one at all to listen to me.  This is not about me or what I want. I don't give a crap.  But I do know what drives people away from group gatherings. I do know what drives people away from open RP (you see it in the other thread too about people not wanting ot leave safe zones because of /troll/fight/etc)...  I know what makes people STAY AWAY from big/open gatherings and what makes them stop going if they once went..

I've seen it happen HERE in THIS Community.. TIME and TIME again ... when people have RPed out big plot fights on "Cantina" cross faction nights.  Or even had several weeks in a row where people were RPing out different plot fights, all of which even outside the cantina, fighting or whatever...

People stop going.  They wont show up and see if there's going to be a fight anymore or not.  They just don't go. 

That isn't a few vocal people not wanting to have to deal with it.  That is yes, the majority of the people you have to RP with, not wanting to go out and mingle anymore, because of /fight drama... and all the ooc bullcrap that goes with it...

Because if the majority of people wanted to bar fight on a regular basis...  we wouldn't be having this discussion because the "Idea" of Sacred Ground would never have taken off.

And at the end of the day I REALLY don't expect people to be listening to me. Because night after night when I'm alone in the cantina... I have no support trying to keep people from fighting.  And they fight.  And I Icily respond in whatever way I feel up to responding...

So no, listen to me? I get quite the opposite impression when I try to "enforce" anything...  :grin:

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Offline Karmic

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Re: Fighting on "Sacred Ground" (con't topic)
« Reply #5 on: 12/02/13, 07:37:22 PM »
+1 Show voters
Sorry guys I typed all that out and YOU ALL RESPONDED before I got done...

I hope that anyone who bothers to respond int he thread will go back and read my points...  because honestly they are addressing all of this...  and those of you already responded didn't read what I said... :)

Now to respond to what YOU said...

Quote
A conflict is more intense and character influencing RP than idle cantina chat and should be respected as such with those participating in idle chat giving the combat a wide berth rather than the other way around.

In Your Opinion...

Those in idle chat would be happy to give the combat a wide berth if it also didn't mean having to leave the bar and 40 feet in all directions...

That sentence to me runs into a "who showed up first...?" situation.  IF the idle chatters go into a cantina and there's already a big old'fight - yup they can go elsewhere.

If the idle chatter starts up first... then the fighters need to give them the berth.

Continuous conflict is no more character influencing than continuous idle chit chat.  Your character actually having to refuse a conflict can be just as character building as having that conflict.

Idle Chat isn't *just* what goes on at cantina events. 

Quote
But a nice fist-fight (which would be longer in game, but short  by most standards) would be welcome I say.

Please read above, I did respond to this.  If it worked that way, it would be awesome. But it doesn't. I've never seen this happen...actually.  That a fist fight stayed with two people and was actually over quickly :).. in RP...

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And as for fighting on so-called 'Sacred-ground', well I understand if someone says that ICly and is like "Hey, take it outside!" But that's only IC, one shouldn't expect to be able to say that oocly and get people to happily comply.

Um.. I agree?  TO me the term is used OOCILy to...sum up the concept.. instead of just explaining it allk over again. But maybe I'm misunderstanding how its being used.  When *I* say it OOCILY its... describing the concept as an explanation.. ICily...  if that makes sense...

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When things are boring and slow, I say bring them on. When things are busy, however...  (but that's an OOC concern, not an IC one).

This seems to be an OOC thread? Isn't it?

When things are boring and slow no.. 9/10 times noone cares.  There are plenty of nights there are next to empty Slopes that people COULD be going out and fighting... and having all the bar fights to their hearts desire...

But they don't want to do it when its slow... because then that's not fun (or they'd be doing it ..).  Because its only fun if others are there... which sets up the whole problem in the first place....

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Offline Orell

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Re: Fighting on "Sacred Ground" (con't topic)
« Reply #6 on: 12/02/13, 08:07:19 PM »
+2 Show voters
...Karmic, I think I get what you mean, but it might be a good idea to put together a TLDR version of that?

But, yeah, I've been involved in a few fights in Cantinas... and its quickly soured the whole idea for me. On very, very rare occasion does a bar fight involve only fists, feet and improvised, non-lethal weapons, and it goes from "rough and tumble to sort out grudges and let off some steam" into "potentially lethal fight that the characters are going to have to pull out all the stops because they want to survive it".

If you want to clock my characters in the jaw because they were assholes (such as Quar), then I really don't mind it much (although I'd like a bit of warning, so that I can be prepared, figure out where I'd want it to go and have a proper understanding of the stakes and your intentions). The issue becomes when blasters, blades and Force powers start getting thrown around, when things are turning potentially lethal.

In all honesty, it spoils the fun.

I'd suggest this: So long as weapons and active use of the Force are not being used in cantina? Then that's fine, if you're watching, let it go, make some bets on who's going to win. But if weapons (particularly weapons that can easily hit innocent bystanders) get pulled out? That's when the cantina should turn on the combatants and tell them to take it outside.

Possibly by reminding the combatants that they are outnumbered, and very likely severely outgunned.
Character List:

Pub side: Lien Orell, Kyri Orell, Shaantil (possibly Dumas), Norland, Everen (bank alt ATM), Quarashaa (Pub version of the real Quarasha), Merrant

Imp Side: Quarasha, Effet Ornell, Arazel, Zedney, Zhel, Asori-Alnas

Offline Karmic

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Re: Fighting on "Sacred Ground" (con't topic)
« Reply #7 on: 12/02/13, 08:13:42 PM »
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((I suck at TLDR...seriously I can't summarize...  but I'll try tomorrow after I've had some sleep...  sorry...))

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Offline Colton

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Re: Fighting on "Sacred Ground" (con't topic)
« Reply #8 on: 12/02/13, 08:25:28 PM »
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I don't think there's any situation that can't be summed up by using Bill and Ted's Excellent Advice:

"Be excellent to each other." If you're going to have a barfight, the first thing you should do is line up consent with the person you want to fight and toss a quick question on limits out there so you don't overstep your bounds, THEN you can fight. Some people treasure their characters and don't mind throwing them into the deep end, but they get to determine how deep that deep end really is. Not you. Respect their boundaries, and they're likely to respect yours in turn.

"Party on!" If you're going to have a barfight, have a barfight. Use fists, beer bottles, furniture and other people to knock each other around (and possibly out). Throw ale in someone's face. Toss someone over the bar. Grab a chair to use as a club, and a table as a shield. In the tabletop game that brought Jace to life years ago, the joke was that we couldn't walk into a cantina without the inevitable bar brawl. It's a staple of any setting that relies on watering holes like bars, really, and those kinds of fights should absolutely happen. Once things escalate into needing actual weapons like vibroblades and blasters though, it stops being a brawl and becomes a battle. Let's save the weaponry for the war, shall we?

At least, that's my thoughts on it. YMMV.
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Offline Saberlain

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Re: Fighting on "Sacred Ground" (con't topic)
« Reply #9 on: 12/02/13, 08:40:43 PM »
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I'd suggest this: So long as weapons and active use of the Force are not being used in cantina? Then that's fine, if you're watching, let it go, make some bets on who's going to win. But if weapons (particularly weapons that can easily hit innocent bystanders) get pulled out? That's when the cantina should turn on the combatants and tell them to take it outside.

Possibly by reminding the combatants that they are outnumbered, and very likely severely outgunned.

My sentiments exactly.

"Be excellent to each other." If you're going to have a barfight, the first thing you should do is line up consent with the person you want to fight and toss a quick question on limits out there so you don't overstep your bounds, THEN you can fight. Some people treasure their characters and don't mind throwing them into the deep end, but they get to determine how deep that deep end really is. Not you. Respect their boundaries, and they're likely to respect yours in turn.

That too, communication is key.

Offline Auryn

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Re: Fighting on "Sacred Ground" (con't topic)
« Reply #10 on: 12/02/13, 08:51:00 PM »
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I don't think there's any situation that can't be summed up by using Bill and Ted's Excellent Advice:

... There are no words to describe how awesome you are for that reference. :cheer:

I wish I could add something more productive, but all this thread has dome for me is made me want to see a full on cowboy-saloon bar fight in-game sometime. No weapons; all fists and swinging off chandeliers and sliding guys down the length of the bar, and clocking people over the head with bottles of spirits... actually, much like that one IN Bill & Ted's Excellent adventure.

Anyway, more on topic. In places like the Dancer's Retreat, I can honestly understand the IC reasons for the anti-violence..stasis field... thingy. You have an open area where both sides of the conflict are in close proximity - tempers could flare easily, and you'd want to take extra precautions so that a disagreement between say, Jedi and Sith, doesn't turn into a bloody massacre. *shrug* When I was first told about it, it just made sense.

In reality, though, doesn't this all come back to permission? The problem with RP fights isn't the nature of them themselves, but I think, when control over what's happening to their character is taken out of the PC's hands. With consent, and maybe some prior-arrangements in specific circumstances ( i.e. give me the option of dodging before you cut off my hand, kind sir), not sure what the problem is.
Then there's the issue of 'consequences', and players who seem to think they can 'get away with everything', however. What Orell said is fair enough - if your character is being a dickhead, you should be prepared for the reactions of the characters you're dealing with. If I decide Reithan is going to be stupid enough to take on three angry Sith, it's my responsibility to realise what sort of trouble that is. If you know your character is putting their foot in it, there could very well be consequences, it's not fair play if you manage to avoid every consequence, every single time... but then that's where the consent ground gets a little sketchy, because you really can't force it.

Party on, dudes!

Also, Kwenn cantina blowing up, huh?
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Offline Karmic

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Re: Fighting on "Sacred Ground" (con't topic)
« Reply #11 on: 12/02/13, 09:49:12 PM »
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(Isn't the first time the cantina's been blown up... the barge has been blown up and wrecked.. why do you think there's a stasis field? Its only needed because that's how people chose to use their freedoms... :)  ANd yes actually there have been several all-out fights with no weapons...  it doesn't avoid the real issue here...IMO..)

Correct me if I am wrong..

But the issue doesn't seem to be that two people won't communicate oocily with each other to have a fight...

Its that those two people deciding what they want to do...  is then possibly infringing/upsetting/pissingoff/whatever the other occupants of said area.

Because I'm all about ooc communication and getting clearance... and working that out.

But how do you do that if you're three people walking into a cantina party of 15?

Not a sarcastic question.  If you're talking about seeing if everyone's cool with breaking out into a bar brawl... then it means ((time for this discussion in /say)) with everyone... ??

Because to me ultimately the issue with the fighting isn't that weapons and lightssabers and force powers happen, and it isn't that the two people picking the fight aren't preparing themselves to work something out...

Its that the RP fun of a few impacts the RP fun of more than the few... and how can the two groups coincide without totally getting sick of each other ;).


So its fine if you're saying, "Hey check the room!"... I'm just also seeing all sorts of problems with that solution that could end up creating more problems than we're already having. (Due to OOC chatter and people expressing their opinions of what they do and don't want to see all at once...)

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Offline Nascuyan

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Re: Fighting on "Sacred Ground" (con't topic)
« Reply #12 on: 12/02/13, 10:46:21 PM »
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Quote
Those in idle chat would be happy to give the combat a wide berth if it also didn't mean having to leave the bar and 40 feet in all directions...

That sentence to me runs into a "who showed up first...?" situation.  IF the idle chatters go into a cantina and there's already a big old'fight - yup they can go elsewhere.

If the idle chatter starts up first... then the fighters need to give them the berth.

Continuous conflict is no more character influencing than continuous idle chit chat.  Your character actually having to refuse a conflict can be just as character building as having that conflict.

First: If there's a gunfight going on, I'd expect people to give it more than 40 feet of clearance.

Second: Why would it turn into a who showed up first scenario? If a fight starts beside you, you move, don't you? Whereas if someone picks a fight with you and there're some people chatting beside you, what difference would that make?

Finally, who said anything about continuous conflict? I haven't been in a fight on Nas'cuyan in months. Hell, I've been in only a handful of fights that he's started/been goaded into in his whole career as a character. I'd say if something comes up that means he'll have to have his first fight in several months I should have the freedom to deal with it without being looked down upon like I'm breaking someone else's immersion to react as my character would. Not everything can be cut and dry "if you get into a fight take it outside." If someone who isn't easily goaded into violence nor prone to starting it gets into a situation where it's necessary they're probably beyond rational thought. Also, if players accept the consequences of their actions fights would be a whole lot less common. For example, if Nas is heavily wounded, don't expect to see him out cracking skulls or walking without a limp for a few weeks.

Having the freedom to do as you want without fear of any kind of community shift in opinion would make this a more vibrant and much less stagnant environment for RP.
 

Offline Brintte

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Re: Fighting on "Sacred Ground" (con't topic)
« Reply #13 on: 12/02/13, 10:51:01 PM »
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Okay, this is a topic I HATE to get involved with, since I am into the idea people RP as they wish. I want to make a point clear, with all due respect to anyone. Sorry if I come out as a bitch, and if I insult anyone, I apologize FOR the insult, not the idea.

I agree communication is key in any RP, but also there's the fact this game is a Star Wars game. I don't remember a single book/movie/videogame/comic book where people had some "sacred ground". I am sorry to say it so plain and direct, but that is just counter productive to any progress in RP. Star Wars has always been about conflict, and I don't mean good vs bad, but simply people with different ideals having to react to the actions of other people with different ideals.

Yes, a DAILY bar fight is annoying as hell. I am the first to agree with that, but the stagnant sit and have tea RP is also uncomfortable. I personally can't bring myself to go to Barge Night, or Kwenn night or even DK night by now. Maybe I miss the RP I had before in EH, or simply I am moving on from SW, but the truth of the matter is I can't see my Imps playing nice with the Pubs or vice versa. I can't even see my Mandos, which most are pretty neutral and give shits about Pubs or Imps, have a conversation with a Jedi or smuggler. It's just not immersive. It was fine at first. Refreshing and good things came out of it, but it got to the point where is either be eternally in one point until SWTOR stops existing, or we start moving forward.

I don't see anything wrong with lifting the sacred ground and allowing bar fights. A set of rules could be set for it, and there's that. If people want to continue RP as it is, and most people want to keep the "Sacred Ground" that's your prerogative, and of course your right. I am giving only my sincere opinion on the matter. Take it for what it is and I have fun with your choice.

Personally, I am done in this eternal fight and will stand on logics side. If people set me in ignore list FOR ACTING LIKE MY CHARACTER WOULD, so be it. It would be sad, but I am done with feeling like a game I enjoyed so much has ten times more red tape than a political crime.

Wish you all the best. Sorry for disappearing from Kwenn, Barge and DK, but I am afraid I might not go back to them in the near future.

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Re: Fighting on "Sacred Ground" (con't topic)
« Reply #14 on: 12/02/13, 11:42:31 PM »
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...Fights happen. Like it or not, you have no right whatsoever to enforce a "hey, let's not do this here." ANY fight that springs up is solely between those fighting. If you don't like it. . .move. If you want to stop it. . .You communicate as well. I can count on one hand the amount of fights cantina-side that have gone crazy and out of control purely because the two initially involved weren't allowed to even emote their blocking or taking the first punch, purely because everyone wanted to STOP a fight.

Really?

On Nar Shadaa. Or Kwenn. These are NOT places where you'd see people trying to break up fights in any way, shape, or form. Nine times out of ten because you may just find out that one of them is nine times more powerful than they were exerting. Barfights aren't where you roll out the heavy blasters and uber Force kills of death. They're where you beat the guy into unconsciousness, leave him there with maybe his wallet taken or something, and continue drinking.

That's not counting Force users. My opinion on them is firm. A sith or a darth in a cantina? Plausible, but improbable. They're out building their empire! Not...consorting with petty thieves. Gathering information can be done with more low-key people within their power base who don't stick out like a sore thumb, and any attempts at getting resources via black market/underworld people can be done going through a more organized scenario. They DO have anonymous holocoms here, people, and criminal organizations that would draw the attention of Darths and Lords would most likely have a way for them to be contacted remotely.

The same goes for Jedi. You may have friends who dive there, but a Jedi. . . .wouldn't really go to a cantina unless he was meeting a contact there, I believe. Or it was a stop on the road to a mission.

Not saying you can't have them go there. . .but my two creds.

ANYWAY. When you get in a crowded place and a fight breaks out? You make room. The whole 'sacred ground' thing is so abhorrent to me because, nine times out of ten, it's not the people who are fighting that are the problem! It's those looking on and being overzealous in trying to ENFORCE sacred ground through floods of text emoting them doing one action after the other to stop it that DOES cause a problem.

Again. Really? You're gonna set EVERYONE against this guy or that guy purely because they're fist-fighting? Or out for blood, even if you don't know them? On Nar Shadaa, stuff like that will -happen-. On Kwenn, stuff like that will -happen.- They are Hutt controlled worlds, and neither Jedi nor Sith have any authority on them. You want to break up a fight? Congratulations, you get to join it now.

Because otherwise, you're godmoding and that doesn't fly. I don't care if you're Darthy mcDarthington who is second to the Emperor and start doing those things.

...That turned into a rant. TL;DR: Sacred ground is BS, cos reasons.