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Author Topic: Editing - Everyone Needs It  (Read 2609 times)

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Offline Niarra

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Re: Editing - Everyone Needs It
« Reply #15 on: 11/28/16, 04:22:28 PM »
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My thing with grammar is that, when I write, I generally write in a way meant to be spoken. It's why my dialog tends to be a whole lot sharper than my settings, descriptions and, even worse, my combat scenes.

This is an interesting distinction, and worth calling out, I think, because it's true that sometimes writing dialogue can feel like a very different beast from writing non-dialogue narrative. That's because, as you rightly pointed out, most of the time we don't actually speak in grammatically correct ways. I would argue that writers with a good natural "ear" for dialogue are starting out from a strong place, however, because that's one of those ineffable things that is very hard to teach in any structured way. It's about "hearing" the rhythms and habits in how people speak, and then knowing how to assign those speech idiosyncrasies to different characters (and why).

I am immediately reminded of a friend of mine who, when working on her most recent novel, was struggling with feeling like her characters were speaking "correctly" until she had taken the time to invent a modest lexicon of slang terms and linguistic habits for the world she was creating (particularly important since the story revolved around class strife), at which point the dialogue took on the full-bodied life she needed. And the result, for the reader, was a vibrant snapshot of dialogue in action.

I think screenplay writers might be a great example of how writing dialogue can sometimes feel like so much of a different beast, and also of how writing styles may not always translate well between different mediums. In fact, let's drop screenplay writers altogether, and talk about game writers instead. I mentioned Drew Karpyshyn in my above post, and he's a perfect example. I'll also use David Gaider as another example. Both of these writers have written games I adore, games that I think feature some truly fantastic dialogue writing, and great stories. But both of them are (in my opinion only, of course) absolutely mediocre novelists - because at the end of the day a novel takes skill in both dialogue and non-dialogue narrative. It requires being able to shift between the natural, organic, often non-grammatically-correct representation of dialogue, and the more structured and unforgiving bed of writing on which the dialogue needs to rest. (You can use words incorrectly in dialogue and claim that it's on purpose, but if you are misusing words or punctuation in the non-dialogue narrative you start to run out of excuses.)

... that being said, it's certainly easier to enjoy a story with great dialogue and so-so narrative than it is to enjoy (or forgive) the inverse. I mean... think of the prequels. The stories there were great, but it sometimes got hard to see that past the unbelievably bad dialogue. 

For those who struggle with dialogue, the only easy trick I can think of for helping to capture a more natural and realistic feel and cadence is to try to read all dialogue out loud, and if you stumble or feel like something is a mouthful at any given point, consider if it needs to be reworked. As always, that's not a universal truth or universally applicable, because in a novel (as opposed to a screenplay or game in which the final product is actually meant to be delivered/performed aloud) one should always remember that a compromise between what is natural to the ear and what is easy on the reader's eye is needed (and often the eye needs to see structure). But it's the only "easy" trick I can think of! (And of course if you're writing a character who is meant to speak with grammatical precision to reflect the level of their education or an aspect of their behavior that's different... but beware of falling back on that excuse too frequently!)

Anyone else have good tricks they've learned to apply, to help in refining their dialogue?
Niarra Reymark, Jedi Master and Diplomat // Derrad Reymark, Starfighter Ace and Softie // Jheva, Padawan and Pattern Reader // Yatei, Jedi Knight // Zelek Arr, Corn Grower
Sivala, Sith Academy Overseer // Rannayel, Sith Lord and Museum Curator
Erran Veshkgalaar, Mandalorian Accountant // Caustrin Neyvor, Dangerous Puppeteer // Ariza Fey, Psycho and Pyro // Kettur Vaen, Semi-Spook

Offline recoveringgeek

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Re: Editing - Everyone Needs It
« Reply #16 on: 11/28/16, 05:37:01 PM »
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I'm on my phone, so I can't write a more in-depth reply, which is ironic given my link.

I had some fiction writing published with Wizards of the Coast twelve years ago, so I briefly got to work with some professional editors. However, despite any academically agreed upon professional standards, editors focus on different things for different stories, and @Niarra points out that bad writing gets published in droves, especially for shared-world writing.

One lesson that stuck? Economy of words. You won't need to worry about semi-colons if you cut the fat and hone in on distilling the idea to its' core.

http://www.fictionaddiction.net/Writer-s-Toolbox/tighten-your-writing.html
I knew some of the Palace history, but not the bit about Jaade crashing that barge. That's good lore, right there.  :grin:

Offline Niarra

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Re: Editing - Everyone Needs It
« Reply #17 on: 11/28/16, 06:06:14 PM »
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However, despite any academically agreed upon professional standards, editors focus on different things for different stories, and @Niarra points out that bad writing gets published in droves, especially for shared-world writing.

Oh, so very true, on both fronts. With editors, as with writers, you get your mix of good and bad, and your mix of areas of expertise and interest. And sadly a whole lot of really bad writing gets published. Call it bad editorial taste or shallow trends or whatever... whatever the reason, it's always depressing to see.

A lot of the time I think you just get editors who are sloppy, or lazy, or over-worked. But sometimes I just don't understand how things happen, or how some folks get jobs as editors to begin with. For example, after seeing the movie version of Miss Peregrine's Home For Peculiar Children I felt compelled to read the book. While it's an OK little book this may be one of the very rare cases where I think the movie did as good (or arguably better) a job as the original novel, and I am of that opinion primarily because the novel was allowed to be published with quite a few egregious errors - incorrectly used words, awkward narrative, and one of my biggest pet-peeves: writing "hear, hear!" as "here, here!" That one just makes me want to cry.   :cry: Bad enough that the author made the mistake, but shame on the editor for not correcting it.

Hence my comment in the original post about holding onto a good editor if you're lucky enough to find one, because they can be rare. And out of respect for your own craft, don't just assume that your friend, because they love your stories, is a good editor. If they didn't find anything to correct or have any suggestions to make, they probably are not being critical enough to help you. In my opinion it's good to have friends who love your stories to help keep your ego fed (because we need that), and also find someone (friend or otherwise) who is willing to tell you what you did wrong.

One lesson that stuck? Economy of words. You won't need to worry about semi-colons if you cut the fat and hone in on distilling the idea to its' core.

So true. And one of the lessons I have yet to adopt to the extent that I need to. Brevity is not my strong suit.  :grin:
Niarra Reymark, Jedi Master and Diplomat // Derrad Reymark, Starfighter Ace and Softie // Jheva, Padawan and Pattern Reader // Yatei, Jedi Knight // Zelek Arr, Corn Grower
Sivala, Sith Academy Overseer // Rannayel, Sith Lord and Museum Curator
Erran Veshkgalaar, Mandalorian Accountant // Caustrin Neyvor, Dangerous Puppeteer // Ariza Fey, Psycho and Pyro // Kettur Vaen, Semi-Spook

Offline Imazi

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Re: Editing - Everyone Needs It
« Reply #18 on: 11/28/16, 06:31:35 PM »
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A point could be made that our editing methods are not really so different. I do little editing checks as I write and review small chunks periodically too. I just don’t do that with an eye towards perfectionism. I leave longer more time consuming edits, like full rewrites, to other drafts. Part of the reason I break the editing process up is to keep from burning out on the first draft and giving up on writing. I don’t actually like to write I just regularly feel the need to, so I have to balance effort with how long my tolerance for writing will hold out.

With editing, I find that it helps to get editing suggestions and critique in writing. I’m the kind of person that initially takes it pretty hard but will still try to accommodate it after I sit down and work through the critique. Writing lets you go back after the initial reaction and see what was actually said not what your knee-jerk reaction was. I also find concrete critique helps as it lets you see if there is an actual problem or it’s a style preference issue. It’s very hard to change something that “doesn’t feel right” as opposed to “the dialogue is dragging on too long.”

Speaking of dialogue, I feel it helps to know the context which shapes how a character speaks and to know the character’s perspective. For instance, if your character comes from a context where proper speech is rarely used, they may speak casually and use irregular grammar with close friends. Conversely, they may use proper speech in more formal or impersonally contexts. In Seenine’s case, she uses fairly standard speech and often misses figures of speech and metaphors. As a droid she doesn’t come from a context where there is much incentive or pressure to deviate from standard speech. She is also missing the proper files and life experiences that would make sense of the metaphors.

Perspective informs a completely different aspect, however. Perspective will tell you what the character should be saying rather than how they say it. If character A hates milk and is talking to character B about history then a glass of milk being handed to character A  would likely be acknowledge even though it’s not the topic at hand. Knowing a character’s priorities, values, and inclinations will let you get in their head enough to hear their voice when writing their dialogue. This is why I find it much easier to write dialogue for scenes where there are strong feelings. It is easier to tell what will be on the character’s mind while talking. For instance, Jessak completely shuts down listening and being reasonable in the face of a bug. Her main concern will be how to get away from the bug or get it away from her. Her dialogue in the presence of a bug will follow accordingly.

One lesson that stuck? Economy of words. You won't need to worry about semi-colons if you cut the fat and hone in on distilling the idea to its' core.

Yeah, I've found that to be really helpful too. However, if you can't cut down on the fat, I also find it helps to state the point or get to the poignant part first then elaborate. People's patience will hold out much longer if they know what it is they are waiting for you to develop. In a way, thesis statements have their place in creative works too. :lol:

My mother also gave me an important bit of advice: no one is obligated to read what you write, so respect the person's time and communicate effectively. If you write like you have to convince the audience to give you a chance rather than write like the audience has nothing better to do than read your work, I think it will go better for both audience and author. I try to write like someone is skimming my work, and I need to tell them upfront why they should take the time to hear the whole story I am telling.

Being mindful of the hook at the beginning of the story seems to be a key step in this, even if it is not connected with the meat of your story.
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Offline Iaera

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Re: Editing - Everyone Needs It
« Reply #19 on: 11/28/16, 08:17:38 PM »
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Anyone else have good tricks they've learned to apply, to help in refining their dialogue?

Not a trick per se (and since we're on the topic, THAT IS HOW YOU SPELL AND USE "per se," DEAR READERS. Ideally italicised if possible, since it's technically Latin. Pet peeve rant complete), but more of... well, another pet peeve! Yay!

Swear words! Yay! (my favourite!)  :whee:

Swear words are great - especially in this context, since they are almost always used in dialogue, rather than non-dialogue. But like any spice, they are best used judiciously. As much as I think they're grrrrrrreat, I can't help but notice the frequency with which they're misused. Yes, some people do swear like sailors, myself included, and sometimes that needs to be written into the character's dialogue:

"Ah fuck, Jim, why the fuck did you have to fuckin' drop the priceless-fuckin'-vase on the fuckin' floor?" said Bob.


Obviously Bob has a potty mouth. But there's a time and place for this sort of puerile invective, and just inserting it willy-nilly into characters' dialogue can be linguistically jarring, tonally inappropriate, or just downright tasteless (though if tasteless is what you're going for, more power to you!). Swearing has an allure to it, certainly, but would this character actually swear the way you've written it? Bob, above, conjures up stereotypes of an New York Italian mobster, at least in my mind, so the swearing works. But I can't for the life of me imagine, say, a Star Wars smuggler talking like that - it's a very different style of dialogue in a very different setting.

"Blast it, Jyym. That vase is worth nothing in pieces. It's coming out of your cut," said Boba.

There's a different tone and different flow to it that demands a different approach to swearing - in this case, very little, and 'sanitised' into fictional swearing at that. I use Star Wars as an example for obvious reasons, but the same concept applies to any sort of dialogue: Fantasy, science fiction, whatever. Some thought must be given to the style and tone of the surroundings and the fact that the speaking character is (presumably) a part of that world. Aragorn, son of Arathorn wouldn't speak like Bob, nor would Doctor Daniel Jackson, nor would the Ninth Doctor, nor would Buffy Summers. Not only are they different characters in their own right, with their own cadence and diction, but they also inhabit different fictional worlds with different tonal standards.

"O Boromir! The dark lord of Mordor take us, for you have let the urn slip from thy grasp and doomed us to a fate wretched and terrible," said Aragorn.*

"Damn it, Jack! Do you have any idea how priceless that urn was?" said Daniel.
(insert goofy O'Neill quip here)

"Oooh, careful with that, love... ah well, can't be helped now! Come on then!" said the Doctor.

"Dawn! I swear if you break one more thing, I will... I will... tell Mom to ground you. For life," said Buffy.

I just picked a few characters who I'm moderately familiar with out of a hat, and only one of them struck me as truly swearing at all - and even then, just a tame "damn." They all express their annoyance with the vase-dropper in different ways, but most communicate it without resorting to much, if any, swearing. In other words, what I'm trying to say is: Go easy on the swear words. Are they really necessary to communicate what your character has to say? And if they are, are they the words the character would use? Imagine Daniel Jackson or Buffy or Aragorn dropping a bunch of F-bombs... amusing for five seconds, maybe, but not really very fitting. Write Better Dialogue - Use Swear Words Judiciously!


*Tolkien was a master wordsmith and I make no claims of even approaching his ability; this is merely my pitiful attempt at emulation
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Offline recoveringgeek

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Re: Editing - Everyone Needs It
« Reply #20 on: 11/29/16, 07:09:14 PM »
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Yes, some people do swear like sailors, myself included, and sometimes that needs to be written into the character's dialogue

Jedi Grandmaster @Iaera Farworlder's voice inside my head has just been irrevocably altered;

"Master Farworlder, the apprentices are awaiting your instruction."

"Fuck."

"Oh, and one more thing Iaera, it appears the Sith Empire has a standing order to test your combat readiness. On sight... "

"Oh? Fuuuck."

"Master Farworlder, priority transmission from Tython. It appears Captain Jaade has attempted to breach the standing no-fly order and land at... "

"I'm going to stab that Mother Fuc-"
I knew some of the Palace history, but not the bit about Jaade crashing that barge. That's good lore, right there.  :grin:

Offline Iaera

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Re: Editing - Everyone Needs It
« Reply #21 on: 11/29/16, 07:17:43 PM »
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Offline Karmic

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Re: Editing - Everyone Needs It
« Reply #22 on: 11/29/16, 09:18:41 PM »
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*has to giggle*  That's all awesome. 

And this is my now favorite version of Star Wars.

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Offline Niarra

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Re: Editing - Everyone Needs It
« Reply #23 on: 11/04/17, 05:44:09 PM »
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With writing shop-talk in the air again in November, I thought I'd add a post to this thread to go over a few tips on some commonly seen word-choice gaffes, in the hope it might be useful to anyone who has ever found any of the following confusing.

I won't waste too much time with a ramp-up here, but I will first take a moment to hark back to the semicolon lesson I started this thread with, by sharing one nifty line found in the novel Beacon 23 by Hugh Howey (a great little book).

Quote
I remember the rule for semicolons; the sentences on both sides have to be full ones.

In one delightful sentence Howey both explained and exemplified how to use a semicolon properly. If you can remember that one sentence, that's probably 90% of the battle. The remaining 10% has to do with all the other stuff that was discussed earlier in the thread, about the importance of the relatedness of the sentences being joined by the semicolon (which is also exemplified in Howey's pithy quote). 

All right! Enough about the semicolon. Without further ado, let's talk about some commonly confused and misused words. This list deals with words that sound or appear similar, and which are often incorrectly interchanged when they are in fact not interchangeable. Here are some tips for avoiding misuse and for picking the right word for the job.

I'm going to start with the ones that are more easily explained.

Lightning versus Lightening
Lightning: A bolt of electricity in the sky.
Lightening: A change in the degree of light or hue, from darker to lighter.
Tip for remembering the difference: Lightning happens quickly, in a flash, and the word for it has fewer letters.

Desert versus Dessert
Desert: A very dry and sandy place.
Dessert: A sweet confection generally intended to be eaten as the last course in a meal.
Tip for remembering the difference: Because dessert comes after a meal, or second to it, it is spelled with an extra s.

Rein versus Reign
Rein(s): A device used to direct a mounted animal. Can also be used to describe the act (i.e. to rein in your horse).
Reign: The rule of a sovereign or person with power over subjects or others with less power. Can also be used to describe the act of doing so (i.e. to reign over the less worthy).
Tips for remembering the difference: 1) Kings generally have more than their subjects, and as such the word reign has more letters. 2) If you can remember how to spell sovereign, the word reign (with a g) is right there in it.

Famous versus Infamous
Famous: Well-known. Of much renown. By strict definition the connotation is a positive one.
Infamous: Well-known in a negative sense. The negativity is the key difference. Infamous does not mean a step up in level of fame; it is specifically used to describe renown earned for bad things.
Tip for remembering the difference: Remember that 'in' as a prefix is used to describe the negative state of a word (e.g. incomplete, ineffective, inflexible, and etc).

Hone versus Home
Hone: To refine or sharpen a thing. To "hone your sword" or "hone your skills."
Home: For the purposes of this comparison, the meaning/definition people have in mind when they misuse this word is about identifying or closing in on a thing. To "home in on the answer."
Tip for remembering the difference: Hone is about the quality of a thing, and home is about the direction of a thing. Remember that homing beacons and homing pigeons both are about moving or tracking to a destination; almost no one makes the mistake of saying "honing beacons" or "honing pigeons," so if you can remember that homing is about direction then you'll always remember how to home in on the correct word choice.

Discreet versus Discrete
Discreet: Being circumspect. The opposite of ostentatious or obvious.
Discrete: Describing two things that are separate from one another. "Those are two discrete issues that should not be conflated."
Tip for remembering the difference: Discrete describes two things that are separate from one another, and appropriately it has a T separating the two instances of E right there in its spelling.

Accept versus Except
Accept: To receive something (or in some cases used to describe ceasing to resist something).
Except: An exclusion. "I like all fruit except for apples."
Tip for remembering the difference: X is often used to indicate something is being eliminated. Except has an X in it, and except is about excluding something. If you're talking about willingly receiving or embracing something and you find yourself using the word with a big fat X in it, you've made the wrong choice.

Lay versus Lie
Lie: The act of making oneself supine. To "lie down on the bed."
Lay: The act of putting down a thing. To "lay down your arms."
Tip for remembering the difference: Lie has an I in it and it is about me (extrapolated, it is about a person in general). Lay is about something you do to an object.
Secondary tip/caveat: The past tense of lie is lay, which is where this gets confusing. The only way to keep all that straight is to remain cognizant of tenses while still remembering the core rules.

Effective versus Efficient
Effective: A tactic, technique, or means that achieves the desired end. "That's an effective strategy."
Efficient: A way of doing things that is more timely than other options, or that produces better results. "That is not an efficient use of your time."
Tip for remembering the difference: Effective is about success or failure, and efficient is about methodology. Walking backwards might be an effective way to get to the store because you will still arrive there eventually, but it is not as efficient as walking forwards would be.

Indolent versus Insolent (Ok, ok, this isn't one that people commonly see, but I have seen it so I'll just outline it here.)
Indolent: A behavior or attitude typified by laziness, slowness, lack of interest or dedication, etc.
Insolent: A behavior or attitude typified by rejection of authority, rudeness, etc.
Tip for remembering the difference: Ummm... I'm struggling for an easy tip on this one... how about... Hissing at people is rude, and insolence has a hissy S in it. Uh... yeah, sure, I'll go with that.


 :nuu: All right! Now let's move on to the two big ones that require a little more explanation.  :nuu:


Affect versus Effect
Affect: Put most simply, affect is about an influence or an appearance. Examples:
              "That affected me in a negative way."
              "He affected a haughty attitude."
Effect: Put most simply, effect is about a result or an attempt to achieve a result. Examples:
              "Let's put that plan into effect."
              "It's time to effect change."

Some more elaboration and explanation about the differences: Imagine that using the word affect will always require a metaphorical canvas, whether that's a person or a situation or a thing - there needs to be something on which influence or change can be seen. If your behavior is affected by something, there is a change that is seen. If someone is affecting a behavior or appearance different from their natural/normal one, there is a change that is seen. If a situation is affected by circumstances such that the course of events is altered, then that is a change that can be seen. While effect may also be about change, it might help to think of effect as a directional word. In fact, the best thing to keep in mind about the appropriate use of the word effect is what I'll say here in the tips:

Tip 1 for remembering the difference: The word effect must be used with a preposition, whereas affect can stand without one. "That is a negative effect."  "It is time to effect change."  "Let's put that plan into effect."  "I'm doing this for effect." 

Tip 2 for remembering the difference: The word affect is most commonly used to describe emotions or behavior. If your'e talking about how someone feels or is behaving, most of the time the word choice is going to be affect.

Tip 3 for remembering the difference: Is the affect/effect the thing/subject you are actually talking about it? If so, the word choice is probably effect. Are you using affect/effect to describe what happened to something else? If so, the word choice is probably affect.


Amiable versus Amicable versus Amenable
I love this one. The differences are subtle, but once you get them into your head you should start to hear the cadences and feel when they're off.

All three of these words might be used to describe positivity, friendliness, and receptiveness - but they are not interchangeable.

Amiable: Amiable requires a person. Further, it requires the person, or their behavior, to be the thing that is being described. "He was an amiable fellow."

Amicable: Amicable is used to describe situations or arrangements, specifically to describe their nature or tone. "We reached an amicable agreement."

Amenable: Amenable describes the nature of a behavior or interaction in relation to something else, and almost always is used to describe receptiveness specifically. "He was amenable to my suggestion." This differs from amiable in that the nature of the person can be different from the nature of their behavior or the way they are interacting with the object. "He is not an amiable person, but he was amenable to my suggestion." The person may not be friendly in their demeanor, but they are still receptive to the idea being proposed.

There is no easy tip for getting this right, it's just a matter of cementing the words and their uses in your mind. Below are some more sentence examples I'll try to whip up to further illustrate the differences; each of these sentences uses the correct word, and in all cases the other two words would be incorrect

"He and I are longstanding political rivals, but at the state dinner we were on our best behavior and managed to have an amicable chat."

"I know my plan might be a little unorthodox, but if you are amenable to the idea of taking a little risk then I think we ought to give it a try."

"She does not have an amiable disposition, but I like her nonetheless."

"We have an amicable relationship."

"I would like to paint the house a different color, but my spouse is not amenable to change."

"She has an amiable conversational style that makes her easy to talk to."



I'll stop there for now, but if anyone has any sneaky words that have always confounded them and would like some clarity from our local editorially-inclined folks, throw them out here and let's see if we can get some answers! It may have been a while since I did editorial work, but it's kind of like a riding a bicycle, and I'm happy to help where help is desired.  :cheer:
« Last Edit: 11/04/17, 11:34:23 PM by Niarra »
Niarra Reymark, Jedi Master and Diplomat // Derrad Reymark, Starfighter Ace and Softie // Jheva, Padawan and Pattern Reader // Yatei, Jedi Knight // Zelek Arr, Corn Grower
Sivala, Sith Academy Overseer // Rannayel, Sith Lord and Museum Curator
Erran Veshkgalaar, Mandalorian Accountant // Caustrin Neyvor, Dangerous Puppeteer // Ariza Fey, Psycho and Pyro // Kettur Vaen, Semi-Spook

Offline Mourne

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Re: Editing - Everyone Needs It
« Reply #24 on: 11/04/17, 11:46:58 PM »
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My personal favorite that I've seen all too often is Rogue vs Rouge. Especially in WoW. Ugh.

Offline Iaera

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Re: Editing - Everyone Needs It
« Reply #25 on: 11/05/17, 01:04:07 AM »
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Discreet versus Discrete
Discreet: Being circumspect. The opposite of ostentatious or obvious.
Discrete: Describing two things that are separate from one another. "Those are two discrete issues that should not be conflated."
Tip for remembering the difference: Discrete describes two things that are separate from one another, and appropriately it has a T separating the two instances of E right there in its spelling.

My preferred method: The Mediterranean island of Crete is a discrete landmass from mainland Greece!

My personal favorite that I've seen all too often is Rogue vs Rouge. Especially in WoW. Ugh.

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Offline Cyone

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Re: Editing - Everyone Needs It
« Reply #26 on: 11/05/17, 05:27:42 AM »
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Ooh ooh! Pick me, pick me! I have one! Ooooh pick me! Pick me!

Ehem.

So I actually just looked this one up, and while it's a tad on the trivial and esoteric side, perhaps it will prove of value to others as it already has to me this very morning.

Speak now or forever hold your peace vs. Speak now or forever hold your piece.

Now I know what you're thinking. As it turns out, yes, there is a difference! I know, right? Got me too. But there's a logic to it, and while I haven't reeeaaaally done my homework (I never do, homework is for suckers and people who don't enjoy the excitement of wild improvisation and aren't intellectually reckless) I'd wager that the same logic applies to a few other confusable idioms that make use of the words as well.

It seems, according to a wee blurb I read (on the Merriam-Webster website, for those of you who really must know) that to "speak your piece" is specifically to state your view or opinion. Put in your two bits or what have you. So in this way, "speak now or forever hold your piece" would mean to toss those two bits in now, make your case, or table them and it for good.

On the other hand, "hold your peace" would mean "hold your tongue" or to keep silent about something. As the writer of the blurb I've been rather effortlessly paraphrasing this entire time put it quite nicely for example,

"You must hold your peace and accept the changes."

It seems one could almost think of it literally as keeping your own personal peace. Not making conflict with the thing in question. It's like a proverbial agreement to be ok with something.

So the difference, in short, appears to be that one is about making a case immediately or forfeiting that case and the other is about submitting objection or agreeing not to object or to live with it, in a sense. Perhaps I could have phrased that better, but that would take more work than I'm willing to put into this.

Did I lose anybody? Irritate them with my horrible lazy formatting? Become a totally unwelcome invader into this thread? Make a fool of myself somehow? Was this helpful? Interesting? I hope not, and not, and not, and not, and so, and so. In that order.

Offline Niarra

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Re: Editing - Everyone Needs It
« Reply #27 on: 05/22/18, 03:04:17 AM »
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If I end up dropping another dumb and unwelcome grammar bomb in this thread in the coming days you can all blame Telltale Games for it. I've been enjoying their Batman series a lot, but nothing takes you out of immersion quite like a character using the wrong word in a sentence because the writer didn't have an editor looking out for them.  :rage:

As an aside, boy does Telltale seem to like Troy Baker and Laura Bailey as voice actors! I kinda dig Troy Baker as Batman, though, I won't lie. He's at least more intelligible than Christian Bale, gotta give him that. (Even if there's something about the combination of his tone and the visual design for Bruce in that series that just makes me half-expect him to detour into Sterling Archer at any moment.)
Niarra Reymark, Jedi Master and Diplomat // Derrad Reymark, Starfighter Ace and Softie // Jheva, Padawan and Pattern Reader // Yatei, Jedi Knight // Zelek Arr, Corn Grower
Sivala, Sith Academy Overseer // Rannayel, Sith Lord and Museum Curator
Erran Veshkgalaar, Mandalorian Accountant // Caustrin Neyvor, Dangerous Puppeteer // Ariza Fey, Psycho and Pyro // Kettur Vaen, Semi-Spook

Offline Cyone

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Re: Editing - Everyone Needs It
« Reply #28 on: 05/22/18, 12:59:40 PM »
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Oh man, I'm with you there. As a diehard Batman fan and self-proclaimed student of the language, I found the dialogue of the Telltale game (from what I played, which is admittedly not all) really grating more than once, particularly for a game where that is supposed to be the focus. I, too, noticed a couple wince-worthy grammatical and word choice errors, which coming from the mouth of a man who is supposed to have the super power of "being a genius" is all the worse.

Furthermore, not really a fan of the Troy Baker voice myself, but then I'm a spoiled Kevin Conroy brat and nothing that isn't his Batman will ever sound like Batman to me. I also just don't really care for any of those sort of main circuit voice actors, because they honestly all end up sounding like the same "stock action male" or "stock action female" to me. As for the much-maligned Bale voice, it should probably be noted that wasn't his choice, and honestly, could be a loooot worse. At least he brought intensity to the role and played a rare, convincing Bruce Wayne—another part of the Telltale game I was not digging so much. Bruce just feels kinda whiney and... normal? Bruce Wayne should feel anything but normal, even if he's just being Bruce Wayne. I don't know, I hope this doesn't get taken the wrong way (and I mean no offense by it) but I was getting some real "this is Millenial Batman" vibes that were, as a Millenial myself, making me a bit ill. I think they were just trying too hard to make him feel "updated to the times" (a mistake DC will apparently never learn from) when, at least in my opinion, Batman is kind of a-temporal by nature. He's always going to be a Noir character, and is defined by the lens of that time. Updating is good, and by no means impossible, but I think they tried to hard.

All that said, I enjoyed what I played and will play more eventually, and the only reason I haven't yet is because I'll be the first to admit that if I play a superhero game where I don't get to punch things often enough, I get bored. That and I've got about a million other games I want to play... *looks at Shadow of War*

P.S. I'm sorry (no I'm not), but Bruce does NOT call Alfred "Al." Ick, bad, no, never. Nuh-uh. Alfred is called Alfred. It may seem like a small thing, but NOTHING IS TOO SMALL FOR NERD RAGE. :rage:
« Last Edit: 05/22/18, 01:07:07 PM by Cyone »

Offline TrickyNick87

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Re: Editing - Everyone Needs It
« Reply #29 on: 05/22/18, 04:11:23 PM »
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@Niarra, this is another brilliant thread of yours.  One subject I'd like to see you address is the abusive use by RPers of the word would in their writing.  This drives me crazier than anything else I see in SWTOR fan fiction writing.

Example: Nick would walk to the door and open it.

Better: Nick walked to the door and opened it.

I see this in in-game RP and short story writing all the time and it makes me want to gauge my eyeballs out of my head.


Also, is this thread your way of subtly offering to edit writers' work before publishing?  I have a short story I'll be posting to Star Forge - RP later today. :)