BC.org relies on donations to provide an environment for players of the Begeren Colony SWTOR Server. For those who wish to contribute in any capacity, a module is available to display what the site uses:

Calendar

October 2018
SuMoTuWeThFrSa
123456
78910111213
14151617181920
21222324252627
28293031
Events
Oct 25: Jedi Night - 7:30 PM PDT

Shoutbox

Voice Chat

Site specific user guide.




For those with Discord client: https://discord.gg/ymKqsvC

Author Topic: So, Lootboxes  (Read 1378 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Orell

  • Parts Donor
  • *
    • View Profile
So, Lootboxes
« on: 11/14/17, 09:12:12 PM »
0 Show voters
Sooooo, there's a few things that I really want to bring up regarding Loot Boxes and Microtransactions and really just general issues regarding finances in the video game industry. But real important ground rule:

Please keep an open mind.

If you hate the concept outright? At least try to understand why they exist, and why this is probably going to stick around for a while...

Players as Content in Multiplayer Games

The number 1 killer of Multiplayer games in the world is, honestly, the most obvious thing out there: No one plays it because no one is playing it. One of the biggest reasons that Overwatch, for example, is so popular is because it's popular: You can log on, start queueing and be placed in a low-latency match that's approximate to your skill level fairly quickly.

It also lets you find niches a lot easier. My jam back in the COD4 days was a very specific gametype: Hardcore Search and Destroy, and at it's height I could easily find plenty of servers hosting that specific game mode in <100 ping.

Meanwhile, if you can't find a game quickly, it's really easy to just get bored waiting. It's what happened to GSF here in SWTOR: Some people stopped playing, so it got harder to find matches, so more people stopped playing, making it even harder to find matches. It's the low population death spiral, and if you fall into it your game might be well and truly fucked.

It's why Bioware did the server merge, to make queues pop faster and minimize the effects of low population counts. It's also why Battlefront II went from Paid DLC to Microtransactions: Because every time a new piece of DLC came out, those that purchased it became separated from those that didn't, splitting the player base.

That's why you see the barrier for entry for multiplayer games and their post release content getting lower and lower: Because for the game to get successful, it needs to become successful so that it can stat successful. Stumble on the start, and everything can collapse.

The Inconsistent Value of Money

Say you have three people: Alex, Bob and Charlie.

All three of them play the same game, and they all enjoy it a lot. However, in their work lives, things are a bit different:

  • Alex has a shit job and earns only $10 per hour
  • Bob does alright for himself and earns $25 per hour
  • Charlie's job is great, and he earns what amounts to $100 per hour

Yeah, it's basic economics, but it's important when it comes to this subject. Each player, assuming no P2W shenanigans are involved, has an equal effect on the other players when it comes to their presence in the game. Charlie doesn't act as ten more players than Alex does, after all.

But their assessment of "what something is worth" is different. Alex sees a $50 price tag and sees that as most of a shift. Bob sees it as two hours of his time, in effect. And Charlie, well, he gets that much for the daily meetings he browses his phone during.

...and with wealth inequality what it is, there's a number of people that earn a lot more than $100/hr.

Box games have been doing this for a while with Collector's Editions: Taking more money from those with more of it and keeping prices lower for everyone else. It's not like a rich guy's going to buy five copies of Assassin's Creed Tedium, so sell him a box with some fancy stuff thrown in.

But for games with large amounts of post-release development, that doesn't work as well. You get the money up front, but if you want to keep developing the game 6-12 months down the line, or longer, you need an ongoing revenue stream. You can fill that with cosmetics to direct purchase, boosters, power items if you're feeling a little evil...

...or you can use the loot box.

So, Why Lootboxes?

...let's leave gambling down to a final section.

Loot boxes are very, very useful for a few reasons:

  • They're cheap. Paying $1.50 - $2.50 on a random thing? Not much more than a bottle of soda. Those without much money can toss a few bucks in and get some nice stuff, those with lots of money can buy, well, more. A lot more.
  • They make everything inside have value. If you make a six outfits in SWTOR, probably only a couple of them will sell, and it can be hard to know which ones. Same with skins, emotes, weapons, decos, etcetera. By making them all and bundling them into loot box, none of it will be "wasted effort", even if it's only to keep away the more valuable prizes.
  • They disguise prices of high-value items. Malgus' outfit is currently being sold in the shop for 1650 CC's, or ~$16, depending on your conversion rate. That's... pretty pricey for a lot of people. Over an hour and a half of work for Alex. The loot box, sold for $2.50, might have a 10% chance of having that outfit... but it'd still have a chance. And yeah, this... is one of the more evil parts of them.
  • They're easy. Sure, you have to code them, but code reuse makes that a breeze past the first one. But you don't need to market test every item, figure out "what is X worth" for everything, determine specific points of value... you just shove a whole bunch of stuff in a crate, give the better stuff lower odds and then move onto working on something else.
  • Design it right, put the bulk-discounts right, and the high-spenders will gobble up way more than you'd expect. If they have the money and they don't mind the cost and Mr. Skinner isn't pushing their buttons, then... well, it can keep a game afloat, being able to take in $100+ per month from a smaller group of people

I don't know SWTOR's balance sheet. There's a reason that isn't made public. But it's probably quite likely that, without the loot boxes, SWTOR would've been shut down by now. And a lot of other games would probably be shut down or in dire straits too. But... yeah, there's an elephant in the room.

Are Loot Boxes Gambling?

...look, this is the sort of question I hate the most: Arguing over Definitions. But it's the word bandied about the most when it comes to Loot Boxes.

On one hand, No. You will always get something from one, you will never gain money from one, and in basically every single case I've seen, the closest thing to an Actual Value for the item you get is worth more than the box itself.

On the other... if it ain't gambling, it's sure pushing a lot of the same buttons. Skinner boxes, non-consistent reward values, jackpots and dummy prizes, and there's always going to be outcomes you love and outcomes you despise.

And there are the horror stories. The kid who steals their parents credit card and charges thousands of dollars. The person with little money and addictive behavior that spends way more than they should. And the lesser cases, how many people here haven't opened boxes, not gotten what they wanted and then bought some more?

I don't have an answer to that question. Just that it's a big question, and legal changes... I wouldn't be against them.
Character List:

Pub side: Lien Orell, Kyri Orell, Shaantil (possibly Dumas), Norland, Everen (bank alt ATM), Quarashaa (Pub version of the real Quarasha), Merrant

Imp Side: Quarasha, Effet Ornell, Arazel, Zedney, Zhel, Asori-Alnas

Offline Imazi

  • Member
    • View Profile
Re: So, Lootboxes
« Reply #1 on: 11/14/17, 11:23:19 PM »
0 Show voters
Lootboxes are a short term fix to a long term problem and mark my words they are going to end up killing some games when people finally get fed up with them.

This particular kind of "product" walks a very fine line and I've yet to see a company walk it well.

If loot boxes were paired direct sales and the loot boxes were significantly cheaper than than desired items along with a better chance of getting the item desired than currently given, then I think it would work well. The problem there is the level of fine tuning it takes to get that right not to mention the time and effort it that takes to do that, like you mentioned.

I just don't trust companies to handle it well, and I think that lack of finer tuning means it will eventually push people away rather than pull them in. Shortcut measures will get shortcut results.

Even Skinner Box mechanics required research, that's why it's named after Skinner. I really think the game companies need to either put more effort into tuning their lootboxes or try something new.
Check my profile for links my short story and art work threads.

New to RPing? Check my Getting Started Guide.

Offline Karmic

  • Member
  • The Shadows Betray you, because they Serve Me.
    • View Profile
Re: So, Lootboxes
« Reply #2 on: 11/15/17, 11:02:16 AM »
0 Show voters
Leaving the Lootboxes=gambling aside (because it is ultimately a pointless debate anyway lol).

There are certainly ways to do RNG boxes right; and of course ways to do it wrong.

Seems to me there are several "more successful than SWTOR" models in the gaming community right now, just among the Western AAA games they could pick to be more like than the way they do it now.  But my argument isn't even with the presence of lootboxes anyway.

Instead of looking at three people - let's look at Four different ways of handling lootboxes going on right now - to varying levels of success.

In this list I'm just not using WoW since it doesn't have lootboxes.  World of Warcraft is its own genre anomoli and there's no evidence going on right now to suggest that anyone else could successfully launch a game and keep it floating the way WoW is floating on just subscriptions.  No lootboxes, at all.  A few fluff items on the store.  But the vast majority of their production income is on subscriptions.    I DO think its important to note - WoW doesn't give any of their game away for free (outside the first 10 or 20 levels if you've not bought the game).  ALL Of these other, less successful, games offer F2P ways.  WoW does not.  But I doubt anyone's going to come along now and do that again.

In any case - four currently available games - four Lootbox models.

1-Overwatch.  Highly successful.  Purchase the game box and you never have to spend another dime to play the game, at all.  But clearly its meeting its cost goals (and then some lol) since its launch over a year ago; JUST on loot boxes.  But this isn't an MMORPG - it is a MMOFPS.  Their content updates are maps and characters, so arguable "much less work" than a 20 dollar DLC continent in an MMORPG or a 30-40 dollar major Expansion.  But - it is working.  Overwatch is ONE of their billion dollar revenue streams (And they currently have like 8...Wow as Illuminati is another thread!  :grin:)

For reference - every holiday event - I buy 10 bucks of RNG boxes in overwatch.  As does my Hubby.  So 2-5 times a year they get another 20 bucks from us, after we bought the game at launch.  As someone who DESPISES RNG loot boxes, I don't mind buying theirs when I do.  I feel I get way more worth out of the game than what I spend so I don't resent a single lootbox sold in Overwatch.  It IS how the game is supported.  Period.

2 - SWTOR - staying in the black (we think), but not a runaway success by any means.  Is able to put out updated content, but - as Orell referred to player retention - that updated content is burned through usually by most in a few short hours and then the game is back to its default, small, population.  Has had to undergo server merges and team cutbacks in order to stay afloat.  Has turned their store into mostly RNG boxes, with a few items you can straight-purchase - with some of those things being higher priced than their competition (outfits being 16-20 dollars, weapons being that much - all way outprice their competition).  SWTOR has f2P possibilities, and then heavily gates every aspect of the game for those people behind a lot of small to large paywalls for every little thing.  I would say SWTOR could be a much more profitable RNG/Store (see example 4) if they just did a few tweaks.  But right now, that doesn't seem to be the direction they are going in.  Unless these 20 dollar outfits STAY on the store and stop being "limited time only".  Housing decorations are mostly gained through these RNG boxes, and they can be traded in the game.  A few on the store.

I've never spent a penny buying RNG lootboxes in SWTOR.  I"ve bought two (single boxes) with the free CC store money over my time since launch and still felt I got ripped off when I did that.  So I've not done that again ever.  I DO Sub to SWTOR, so they get my money that way.  If it weren't for Strongholds, I'd still be a free player.

3 - Secret World - This game was sub on launch, but within three months went B2P. Buy box purchase, never pay a penny again to access content.  For the first couple years of the game there were no RNG lootboxes.  There was a store you could spend IRL bought Funcom Points in for all fluff stuff - outfits, pets, etc.  And it has 10 times as much possible purchased content than SWTOR store has now.  Tons and tons of stuff!  All fluff. 

However, for various reasons, the game slowly bled money the entire time.  So as a way to try and generate revenue they introduced the first RNG box - and tied it to a  holiday event.  RNG box contents can be traded at Auction (like SWTORs).  In addition to the first Holiday Event RNG Box - the devs put out a slightly more expensive RNG box (cheap one was like 3 bucks, more expensive one was like 10 bucks) that could be opened by someone in a group and it would give up to 10 people in the group the RNG Box Drops as well AND if you did open that box and share it with 10 people, the buyer of the box would ding an achievement that gave them a dance-emote.  Win Win for ALL!

And it was *huge.*  Everyone loved buying group boxes, getting a dance, and opening them at parties.  Every night there would be several "box parties" - people grouping up all over to get their dance and share with friends and strangers.  Guild groups buying dozens of boxes and throwing big holiday parties where people could walk away with dozens of items from the holiday boxes without spending a penny.  There were invididuals (as we found out later) spending literally hundreds of dollars on holiday group loot boxes for their guilds, their online communities, for charity events, etc.   The devs said at that time that the RNG loot boxes weren't going to be "all the time" but that they were experimenting with various ways of drumming up money.  So players KNEW the game also depended on this revenue and were happy to give!

The problem started when one holiday loot box turned into 4 by Valentine's Day.  One for Halloween.  One for Xmas.  But then one for a Golden Golem Event (in TSW not really considered a big huge event, we had a golden golem event about once a season...).  And then one for V-day.  By this point, players were starting to get a little burned out.  They still loved the group boxes and group parties - but the wallet that supports two or three holidays a year giving like that can't necessarily support a new group box every 2 months.  Revenue started dropping.  Content started really lagging, but still new RNG Loot boxes with dance.  The people who want to support the game still want to - but very much getting resentful of being constantly asked to do so in this manner.  With no new content and nothing else coming, but here's another RNG LOot box and dance.

But it continued.  And went on...and on.  Less and less people putting out less and less money each additional "Holiday event RNG Box" and this went on until Funcom decided to ditch the whole thing and reboot it as totally F2P, with a whole different system - because they couldn't afford to keep going - even with loot box money.

They took a wonderful community centric idea players were thrilled about - and drove it into the ground until it stopped producing.

Now the Funcom store still has tons of fluff you can direct buy; and there are still RNG loot boxes.  Unfortunately, they screwed all the pooch on a ton of other monetization options so that as a result - people who are subbed or not, are really feeling the pinch of how often they are being asked to pay out to do anything besides open "one rng box a day" that their sub gives them a single key for.

For myself - I bought a lifetime membership when the game went b2p the first year.  So I don't have to pay a sub, still, ever, to play the game (both of them now).  I use to get monthly stipend of funcom points in the old TSW - and I ALSO spent money on their group RNG boxes for a few holidays as I wanted to support the game and loved the idea of that type of RNG box.  But I also got burned out when nothing but RNG boxes kept coming and so stopped paying.  Even as a "sub covered for lifer" during the original TSW seeral times a year I spent more money on funcom point and didn't begrudge that - to support the game and buy fluff.  No problems.  I wanted to see this game succeed, so I bought teh coins and bought some boxes.

TSW has no housing option and no plans for one that have been made public.

And with the new TSW - my lifetime sub will do.  I won't give them another penny without new content being produced.  And I won't be buying any RNG boxes from them, again, ever.

As of their first quarterly report - new TSW is in the black.  It remains to be seen if this will work out long term or not.

4 - TESO - I saved this for last because to me, this is the model that works the best - that I've seen.  TESO launched as a regular sub-game requirement like WoW; however, that didn't do so hot.  So..what.. 2 or so years ago (not sure I didn't play it then) they switched to "One Tamaril TESO" and turned it into a b2p game - or you can sub.  When they did that, they made all the zones level adaptable and took out all race-lore-restrictions of where you can play.
 So that a character can be any race and can quest through the entire content of the game without hitting walls -
 it levels with you whever you are. 

TESO has a store that has a *lot* of direct-purchase options, AND RNG lootboxes (but their RNG lootboxes aren't given center page attention, just one page among many of things you can buy).  As part of TESO b2p - you can also buy every DLC separate outright from the store to access the content forever, or just sub.  But as a sub you don't "own" that DLC content - so if you don't have a sub one month, all the DLC you didn't direct buy you no longer can use.  So its possible to play TESO just buying all the content "boxes" one at a time and never subbing, or you can sub and play it all.

Also if you do sub - they give you 15 bucks worth of free TESO store coins a month.  Yea.  You read that right. YOU GET THE ENTIRE SUB PRICE IN FREE STORE COINS!  So you either are subbing for free and buy 15 bucks in store coins a month, or you sub and get 15 bucks of coins free.  Talk about value!  And if you sub for three months, you get 4500 coins the first day - not dolled out each month.

In addition, not only does TESO have housing - but their housing options are PLENTIFUL.  They have 55 ( yea that's right FIFTY FIVE!) different houses to pick from - ALL of which you can buy with in game money OR IRL money- from prices that range from 6-8 bucks to 80-90 dollars(!).  All various sizes, environments, looks, etc.  All of which can be walked through and shopped from their store as well as in game. And you can own one of every single type of house. So a player can, if they want, have 55 separate houses.  Lots of decoration packs are sold in the store, but tons can be made by the crafters in game as well.  Their outfits aren't 16-20 dollars like SWTOR - but 4-10 bucks.  The only other items on the store that costs 15+ dollars besides the houses are mounts.  Everything else is cheaper than SWTOR averages.

Clearly, TESO is doing better than TSW and SWTOR (and possibly combined).  They've had steady income stream now for years in this model.  They have *regular* content updates and (in addition to) expansions that are far more content heavy than what SWTOR normally puts out as their "updates".  They are "one server" idea so they don't have to worry about "server merges" as that's just not a thing there.  There's no rumors of them running out of money, no rumors of dev teams getting axed - just "business is trucking and it keeps trucking just fine..."

They have "limited time only" purchases on the stores sure - mounts, pets, fluff etc.  Various times.  They also have holiday events where people who play during xyz time get *free* RNG loot boxes (one a day, five for the duration etc) so people get a taste without spending anything - just for logging in.

~~~~

To me - SWTOR could learn a ton from the TESO model just looking at the way they do the store and items therein.  SWOTR has housing - but for whatever reason - they are shooting themselves in the foot by sitting on this money maker and not cashing the HELL out of it - the way TESO does.  There's NO reason they shouldn't be offering dozens of housing options, letting everyone have however many frickin keys and access they want - and selling it all for comparable prices (instead of charging twice as much as every other game does for the same thing).  They need to move away from the nickle-dime of the TSW-like model they have now, that only generates negative feelings among players - and start having sales, specials, and give-aways like TESO does to generate interest and positive player feelings.

Instead of 15 bucks sub getting you 5 bucks of free CC - they could give 10, 12, or the entire sub price as TESO does.

When players feel the dev company is doing them right - they have no issue throwing money at them to keep going.  Hundreds of people did for a few years at TSW trying to keep it afloat - everyone wanted it to succeeed and the players knew their money counted.  But when the devs shoot themselves in the foot and stop content production - then players good will only goes so far.

I don't have anything intrinsically against RNG boxes anymore.  I've moved beyond accepting them as now the most viable option of making money for a lot of gaming companies.  Ok. Fine.

But do it the right way. The positive way - where your players feel they get fair value (at least) for the money they are spending. 

Instead of forcing pay walls and high unlock fees for fluff and content and putting everything you have to offer in an RNG box with no other way.  TESO subscription is *worth* the money if you craft at all (not looking at the free coins), but if you don't then its entirely possible to never do more than just buy the DLC and the box and play to your heart's content.  They don't lock mount speeds or gear or dungeons or cloak helmet or even races behind any pay wall BESIDES with subbing or buying the DLC it came with (i.e. if you don't buy Morrowind expansion you can't go into dungeons in Morrowind). You aren't limited to 5 houses out of 60 and if you buy a sixth you have to shut down one of the others to use it. No.  No you can buy every one of 55 and have them all accessible 24/7 if that's what you want to do.

I started playing TESO with no plans to sub; just a backup game I can quest solo on and it had a crapton of content to quest on.  But after a month or so I subbed up to see what the bonuses were, and I've never stopped subbing since.  Nor do I begrudge that sub - I LOVE my unlimited craft bag! XD  And then when I comprehended I got the entire value of my sub in free store coins - HA! Talk about value!  I've already bought a house for free now =D and bam - player bit by housing bug, more reasons to stay.

I happily pay my money to TESO, to Overwatch - I feel I get more than I pay for. I feel they utilize that funding well and don't just give me more RNG loot boxes - but real content that takes a week to get through as well as new direct buy items at the same time.  Their RNG loot box themes don't run for 2 weeks and then give another one- they run for a month or two and then cycle to another one. 

I hate that I have to sub to SWTOR. I don't like supporting them and as a result I don't spend an extra penny to do so.  If I stopped decorating I'd drop my sub like a hot rock like I did the day they went f2p before housing.  And I don't give an extra penny to TSW anymore too (though I use to) as they showed an inability to reward their players fairly with the support given.

TESO is a quality working model - the best one I've seen in the industry so far (though I am not familiar with the korean half of the industry lol) and I rarely to never hear people griping about any of the monetization in general chat or in guilds or groups of players.  Usually the opposite - they talk about how much they love their bonuses and encourage others in the values of the subs.  In swtor its more of a resentful discussion - "Yea you can sub and not have to unlock that....yea..."

(Sorry for the dissertation - there went my lunch hour.  I knew it would be because I've had all this in my head for a long time now lol)

History Posts:  Her Backstory , Darth-Hood

Offline Sebrik

  • Member
  • I Peaked in Season 3
    • View Profile
Re: So, Lootboxes
« Reply #3 on: 11/15/17, 01:05:56 PM »
+1 Show voters
I know this discussion was started due to all the recent Battlefront 2 drama, and I'll be honest, I don't really get what all the fuss is about.


When EA announced no season pass for Battlefront 2, there were only a few of us trying to explain that that wasn't going to be something good.  EA were obviously going to make their money back some other way - microtransactions.


For $60, you get a lot of game with Battlefront 2.  A decent campaign, multiplayer, amazing visuals and sounds.  For 60 bucks.  That's a damn good price when you consider that triple A titles haven't been $60 for awhile now, especially from DICE/EA.

Base price of Battlefront 1 + Season pass = $90
Base price of Battlefield 1 + Season pass = $90-130
Base price of Battlefield 3 + Season pass = $110
Base price of Battlefield 4 + season pass = $90
Base price of The Witcher 3 + DLC = $90
Base price of Call of Duty WW2 + season pass = $110
Base price of Assassin's Creed Origins + Season pass = $90


Just like Battlefront 2 , GTA V is $60, but includes microtransactions too in the form of shark cards.  Those are both two games with great gameplay, visuals, sound, immersiveness, and they include microtransactions why?  Because they're both at the low cost of $60, so they make their money back in other ways.

If we as consumers don't want to continue seeing games riddled with microtransactions (lootboxes included) or season pass, then the industry needs to raise the base price of a game to at least $80-90 bucks.  The last price hike was in 2005 with the release of the Xbox, when triple A titles moved from $50 to $60.  That same 60 bucks then is now about $75 today.  (https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=59.99&year1=200511&year2=201709)

$60 today really only gets you the "base edition" or "lite edition" of the game, as it should be.  All these "deluxe editions" or season passes push the game up to where the price really should be,  otherwise that money is made back through microtransactions like shark cards or loot boxes. 

As consumers we want bigger and better games.  We expect a higher level of graphics than we did in 2005, higher level of immersion, audio quality, immersiveness, we're a demanding group of consumers.  Yet we want to pay the same $60 that we've been paying the last 10 years, even though the quality of games has increased ten fold (plus accounting for inflation places that 60 at 75 today.)



The simple fact of today is, the true price of a triple A title is not $60 if you want everything it includes, like DLC.  $60 is the lite edition.  Season pass or deluxe editions around $80-100 is the true price of these games.  The problem is all the consumers who only purchase the lite edition and then whine about not having everything. 



Pushing the actual base price of a game up to $80-90 is pretty much the same system we have now, except it removes all the whining that comes with needing to buy a season pass for the DLC. 


At the end of the day, a company is a company.  Video game publishers make money.  Publishers like EA need to have a financial incentive to meet these increased demands of consumers, or else why would they release a higher quality product for the same price as their 10 year old lower quality product? 


If we want to stop with season pass and pay to win crap, games should be advertised for $90.



Battlefront 2 is one hell of a game for $60.  Even if you don't enjoy the gameplay, you have to realize that a single player experience + multiplayer + top level visuals and sound is not something you see often nowadays for only $60.  Obviously they're going to make up that lost revenue somehow.
« Last Edit: 11/15/17, 01:22:12 PM by Sebrik »

Offline Noth

  • Member
  • The Jedi of Tira'Noth
    • View Profile
Re: So, Lootboxes
« Reply #4 on: 11/15/17, 04:53:36 PM »
0 Show voters
Just because Karmic brought up ESO, I'm chiming in with my 2cents.

I stopped playing ESO because their RNG/lootbox model was so punishing to the F2P players. It is, in my opinion, an atrocious system, and could learn a few things from SWTOR.

1. ESO is not really F2P. I preordered it, the whole shebang, cost me a lot of money at the time. It's not like SWTOR where you can make a free account and just play. As far as I know, you still must actually buy the game. This is significant because ESO prices their RNG boxes so steeply. It requires you to pay upfront, then pay a subscription to even be able to dream to afford getting the boxes you need to get one single item. This is significant because...

2. In ESO you are not guarunteed ANYTHING AT ALL when you buy a lootbox. Their lootbox system is roughly "buy many lootboxes in order to maybe get this in-game currency and then maybe save up that currency to buy one thing you want in the store." It would be as if SWTOR, instead of including items in the lootbox, just included XP boosts and cartel certificates, and an extremely slim chance you will receive an item. Whick a kicker because...

3. In ESO you cannot trade items from lootboxes to other players. At all. It's not possible. You can't buy things for your friends! You can't trade on the market! If you get something you don't want, too bad, you own it now. This in conjunction with the 2nd point above means that in order to get, say, that mount you want, you must spend potentially hundreds of dollars to only have a chance of getting the item you want, because the RNG is just... that bad, and if you aren't auto-gifted the item in the extremely slim chance then you must buy enough boxes to get the in-game currency to buy the item. And what makes it even worse?

4. All their lootboxes are done during limited-time events. So by the time you've bought enough boxes to get enough of the special in-game currency to buy the item you want, the item and the event are gone from the store. This encourages people to spend large amounts of money on the game in very limited amounts of time because they know that the item they want will not be there if they just spend small amounts of money when they are able to afford it. Because there's no way to get it through trade later!

This is gambling. I don't know about other lootbox system, just that ESO's is designed to a) create a system that forces you to be a whale or a subscriber b) force the player to spend a lot of money in a short amount of time to have a chance at the item they want at all. My family has a history of gambling problems, and I uninstalled the game when this system launched, because I foresaw myself falling into it if the game was around. I would've been happy to buy a few if it was SWTOR's system, where you have a chance and can trade for the item you didn't get. I could buy one or two, be sad if I didn't get what I wanted, then ask around among my friends to see if they got the thing I wanted. But this just isn't possible in ESO. The only option is to sink a ton of money into the game and then most likely not even get the item you were sinking money to get.

Overall, SWTOR has a good system. You are able to trade for items you want. The RNG gets you cool stuff, which you can either keep or sell for credits to get the actual things you want. And you will never have a crate that only gives you XP buffs and consumables (which is something that's pretty common when you open a lootbox in ESO). The new crates are particularly balanced, IMO. If they reintroduced old crates to the market more regularly (perhaps as a fixture of the market in its own pane?) then I would have zero complaints about it. The gamble box is fun, if everyone is winning! And in SWTOR everyone is winning: The company gets money, and the player gets cool items and/or the ability to sell those items for credits or gift them to friends.

Most people play more than one MMO or multiplayer game. It's one reason people like games that have F2P models. But if you have to pay a sub + a lot of money on top of the sub to get a couple shiny cosmetics, that's not affordable for most people if it's being done for more than one game. SWTOR's doing a pretty good job of making it accessible, IMO.

For a non-lootbox system, I think DDO has a pretty good system, but I also don't think that it would be sustainable outside the DDO community. It's similar to WOW, where you get the first few levels free, then have to sub to access the rest of the content. However, in DDO you can also buy quest content by level as sort of mini-expansions, and you earn store credit simply by playing the game. In addition, the game launches frequent sales which you can find out about in the news section of the site. Then, every now and again, they release a new full expansion for the price of a game box, with multiple editions, like an old-school game. It's a good system that doesn't rely on lootboxes. But I do think that only older, established games are able to get away with that now. :(
The Jedi: Bren (Archaeologist), Iirim (Healer), Zorru (Recruiter), Orans (Master), Aybekk (Padawan)
The Politicians: Varooth (Senator), Seirion (Aide/Spy), Ayrak (King)
The Mandos: Urziya (Rallymaster), Terr (Chieftain)
The Outlaws: Telen (Slicer), Majia (Pirate/Smuggler)
The Imperials: Athuuna (Agent), Zhekrazh (Lord), Z'ridia (Apprentice)

Offline Sebrik

  • Member
  • I Peaked in Season 3
    • View Profile
Re: So, Lootboxes
« Reply #5 on: 11/15/17, 05:00:17 PM »
0 Show voters
But Noth, that was SWTOR before F2P was released.  You had to buy the game to play it, then pay subscription on top of that.  Neither are you guaranteed anything worthwhile in TOR's lootboxes. 

3 and 4 do sound crappy though, are mounts really that rare and hard to get?  I've been looking at ESO recently. 

Quote
Overall, SWTOR has a good system. You are able to trade for items you want. The RNG gets you cool stuff, which you can either keep or sell for credits to get the actual things you want. And you will never have a crate that only gives you XP buffs and consumables (which is something that's pretty common when you open a lootbox in ESO). The new crates are particularly balanced, IMO. If they reintroduced old crates to the market more regularly (perhaps as a fixture of the market in its own pane?) then I would have zero complaints about it. The gamble box is fun, if everyone is winning! And in SWTOR everyone is winning: The company gets money, and the player gets cool items and/or the ability to sell those items for credits or gift them to friends.

I have to say this is simply not true though.  I and other have most certainly opened packs before with nothing but consumables and XP buffs.  It's quite often we get exactly what we don't want, and some of the worthless stuff can't be traded at all (jawa scrap)

But perhaps that's a discussion for another thread.
« Last Edit: 11/15/17, 05:04:15 PM by Sebrik »

Offline Noth

  • Member
  • The Jedi of Tira'Noth
    • View Profile
Re: So, Lootboxes
« Reply #6 on: 11/15/17, 05:04:24 PM »
0 Show voters
But Noth, that was SWTOR before F2P was released.  You had to buy the game to play it, then pay subscription on top of that.  Neither are you guaranteed anything worthwhile in TOR's lootboxes. 

3 and 4 do sound crappy though, are mounts really that rare and hard to get?  I've been looking at ESO recently.

This is not their current system though! It might've been crappy to start with, but they have made it not so since. ESO hasn't to my knowledge. ESO's model brings money, but hurts players, and that's a model companies will want to follow. :/ Cynical, yeah, but it is logical to want to follow the model that rakes in money short-term but cuts out players with less money. If they switched to something like SWTOR I'd probably start playing again. The point is what the system is like now.
The Jedi: Bren (Archaeologist), Iirim (Healer), Zorru (Recruiter), Orans (Master), Aybekk (Padawan)
The Politicians: Varooth (Senator), Seirion (Aide/Spy), Ayrak (King)
The Mandos: Urziya (Rallymaster), Terr (Chieftain)
The Outlaws: Telen (Slicer), Majia (Pirate/Smuggler)
The Imperials: Athuuna (Agent), Zhekrazh (Lord), Z'ridia (Apprentice)

Offline Sebrik

  • Member
  • I Peaked in Season 3
    • View Profile
Re: So, Lootboxes
« Reply #7 on: 11/15/17, 05:09:25 PM »
0 Show voters
But Noth, that was SWTOR before F2P was released.  You had to buy the game to play it, then pay subscription on top of that.  Neither are you guaranteed anything worthwhile in TOR's lootboxes. 

3 and 4 do sound crappy though, are mounts really that rare and hard to get?  I've been looking at ESO recently.

This is not their current system though! It might've been crappy to start with, but they have made it not so since. ESO hasn't to my knowledge. ESO's model brings money, but hurts players, and that's a model companies will want to follow. :/ Cynical, yeah, but it is logical to want to follow the model that rakes in money short-term but cuts out players with less money. If they switched to something like SWTOR I'd probably start playing again. The point is what the system is like now.

SWTOR was forced to go F2P for revenue, not because they suddenly became a charity.  That's usually how buy2play games work, they end up F2P because the current model doesn't support profits. 

If ESO's model really hurt players bad enough, then it would hurt revenue too, and then ESO would go F2P.  But it hasn't yet, and from reading Karmic's post above, she seems to have high opinions of the game (could be misreading though). 

Offline Noth

  • Member
  • The Jedi of Tira'Noth
    • View Profile
Re: So, Lootboxes
« Reply #8 on: 11/15/17, 05:27:12 PM »
0 Show voters
But Noth, that was SWTOR before F2P was released.  You had to buy the game to play it, then pay subscription on top of that.  Neither are you guaranteed anything worthwhile in TOR's lootboxes. 

3 and 4 do sound crappy though, are mounts really that rare and hard to get?  I've been looking at ESO recently.

This is not their current system though! It might've been crappy to start with, but they have made it not so since. ESO hasn't to my knowledge. ESO's model brings money, but hurts players, and that's a model companies will want to follow. :/ Cynical, yeah, but it is logical to want to follow the model that rakes in money short-term but cuts out players with less money. If they switched to something like SWTOR I'd probably start playing again. The point is what the system is like now.

SWTOR was forced to go F2P for revenue, not because they suddenly became a charity.  That's usually how buy2play games work, they end up F2P because the current model doesn't support profits. 

If ESO's model really hurt players bad enough, then it would hurt revenue too, and then ESO would go F2P.  But it hasn't yet, and from reading Karmic's post above, she seems to have high opinions of the game (could be misreading though).

I don't get what you're trying to say...

The discussion is on if lootboxes are good or bad. I posted that SWTOR's current lootbox model is good and enjoyable and I like using it as a consumer, but that ESO's makes the game inaccessible to me. I'm not telling people to stop playing the game or trying to make some point about what SWTOR's old model was.

Do you think SWTOR should go back to its old lootbox model? Do you think SWTOR should stop allowing us to sell things? What are you trying to argue here?

SWTOR revamped their market system to attract new players, not to lose them. I would be surprised if they wanted to go back to a system that they were using during a time when they were actively bleeding players. The current system is pretty good. We're talking about RNG systems we like or dislike, not the state of SWTOR.
The Jedi: Bren (Archaeologist), Iirim (Healer), Zorru (Recruiter), Orans (Master), Aybekk (Padawan)
The Politicians: Varooth (Senator), Seirion (Aide/Spy), Ayrak (King)
The Mandos: Urziya (Rallymaster), Terr (Chieftain)
The Outlaws: Telen (Slicer), Majia (Pirate/Smuggler)
The Imperials: Athuuna (Agent), Zhekrazh (Lord), Z'ridia (Apprentice)

Offline SquigglyV

  • Member
  • My business, as you know, is fighting.
    • View Profile
Re: So, Lootboxes
« Reply #9 on: 11/15/17, 06:31:59 PM »
0 Show voters
Loot boxes can be tolerable as long as there's another way to get the stuff and they don't contain anything that's totally game-changing or should be a basic part of the game. Like, we have the GTN where you can buy from other players, i'm fine with that for the most part. And everything in our packs is just for fashion or decoration, you don't get full ops gear for paying cartel coins nor are certain classes locked behind microtransactions. It's a step above games like GW2 where you can't obtain RNG items through other methods, though maybe i'm biased because GW2 has the worst armour/weapon design ever of all time.

A really good example of how to do it is TF2 imo. You can buy gambling boxes but everything in them is available for direct buy at an increased cost or, even better, as random drops. The weapons and such do have different stats, which i'll admit I don't entirely like, but they're all intended to be sidegrades (or downgrades even) that allow for more specific playstyles rather than some P2W bullshit. And you can trade items too.

I don't think loot boxes are ever necessary in any occasion, direct buy stuff or actual expansion packs with content in them are far better, but i'll tolerate the gambling stuff in multiplayer-focused or F2P games as long as they're not horrendously done. There are definitely some undeniable issues with them, like a lack of transparency in your chances to get certain things and the fact that they take advantage of compulsive gambling or other psychological stuff, but considering that those are still issues in normal monetary gambling I doubt it's ever gonna change here either.

I'm not going to get into the "we should raise game prices beyond what most people can afford" argument, because it makes me simultaneously sad and angry lol.

Offline Karmic

  • Member
  • The Shadows Betray you, because they Serve Me.
    • View Profile
Re: So, Lootboxes
« Reply #10 on: 11/15/17, 09:02:54 PM »
0 Show voters
OOH STUFF!

Gonna try and not turn this into a single novel so this may end up being more than one post.  :aww:  But lots of things to respond to so let the quotes begin !  :grin:


First Noth I will say - I never said the TESO system was perfect - because I quite agree, I do wish all the items like in SWTOR were up on the GTN for sale.  That IS something in common between TSW and SWTOR RNG Boxes that I do appreciate that TESO is lacking.  So yes, TESO system can be tweaked - but out of all the above it offers the most true variety in ways to pay money and in ways to play the game without paying more than *box cost*.

Just because Karmic brought up ESO, I'm chiming in with my 2cents.

I stopped playing ESO because their RNG/lootbox model was so punishing to the F2P players. It is, in my opinion, an atrocious system, and could learn a few things from SWTOR.


I will start the rest of this by saying- no, actually, you're not punished or forced into anything.  This is an argument I just don't find applicable.  Nothing in any of these games forces anyone to buy a single loot box.  You're not "punished" gamewise because none of these games have "pay to win" in their RNG boxes (or their stores).  I certainly feel no need at all to buy a loot box in TESO - the store has boocoos of other things I can buy direct, and so does the game itself.  Something both SWTOR and TSW lack (in either one or the other or all of the above).  True- you won't get that item, but if in SWTOR the item you want is 20 bucks or 100 million credits because its a rare drop outfit from an RNG box, you are being "punished" or "forced" one way or another to do something to grind out the item.  (For me and TESO-RNG so far this year I've found most things ugly and didn't want them anyway, mounts included.)

I don't like using the "forced" term when discussing RNG bonus loot boxes - because you aren't.  Its using an absolute in a discussion (which is rarely true anyway) AND its not even an absolute.

Quote
1. ESO is not really F2P. I preordered it, the whole shebang, cost me a lot of money at the time. It's not like SWTOR where you can make a free account and just play. As far as I know, you still must actually buy the game. This is significant because ESO prices their RNG boxes so steeply. It requires you to pay upfront, then pay a subscription to even be able to dream to afford getting the boxes you need to get one single item. This is significant because...

I never said TESO was F2p, I said it was b2p. BUY to Play.  Yes, there is an initial cost investment for the base game and then you can play for free "forever."  Yes, if you want the DLC you have to buy those separate (though there are often combo deals of course) or subscribe.  That is still true.

THe fact that I rarely see the base game discounted at all - tells me they don't need to.  If they were struggling for money or subs (as TSW/SWTOR have been before) then they'd drop that entry price.  So far they've not needed to.  They've bundled DLCs, but that base game is still for the most part (cept maybe xmas sale or something) the original 50 bucks.

And yes Noth, I did too - during beta.  I bought the base game and subbed for 3 months out of the gate.  I wasn't impressed with the questing at all at the time and found it very vanilla - in addition to there being a lot of issues with zenimax getting PHarmers under control. When I left at that time, people were blowing up the forums with "If you don't get these gold farmers out of here..." posts and people now believing that launch was a last-minute-money grab by Zenimax before they bailed on the whole project.  Because at the time I was already playing a "charity MMO" (Secret World) I didn't want a 2nd one and left out due to my overall boredom and unhappiness with the dev's responses.   

I'm happy to say..now what..4-5 or so years later-- that Zenimax wasn't doing that!  When I went back to play "for free" after the week steam trial this past summer (Free for me now because I bought the game 5 years ago lol) I used that same old account.


As for costs - let's look at it.  You're right, TESO's are more expensive - BUT, that's not true about the rest of the store.  I'm also going to leave off the free bonuses for both subs as you were talking "non-subs" so, just going with the idea that all these examples are with no sub :).  Roughly keeping 100 credits=1 buck (Ish...SWTOR gets fuzzy, TESO is direct lol)

For TESO - it comes out to (in US currency to keep it simpler!) - 4 bucks for a single box, 15 bucks for set of 4, 50 bucks for a set of 15.
In SWTOR - its 3 bucks for single box, 14 bucks for 5, and 65-70 bucks for 25.

Personally I think its crazy that anyone spends that much on 15 or 25 boxes! =D (sorry Seraphie!  :halo: ) But yes, TESO boxes cost more - kinda.  Its certainly not remarkably more expensive considering the box numbers aren't the same. 

But if you look at the rest of the store - it switches.  Outfits on TESO 4, 5, 6.. as much as 7 bucks! (gasp)  There are a couple regular outfit/TOPS (only) on SWTOR store for 4-5 bucks; the vast majority start at 14.  And most of the ones that people want - are limited run and start (like the one right now) around 16 bucks and go up from there.  We all remember the what.. 60 dollar saber was it?  :facepalm: :shifty:

The mounts in TESO are 20 or 25 (if they have sparklies or something) and they offer 10+ on the store direct (which is actually pretty standard - 20 bucks for a store mount).  There are a few mounts on the SWTOR store for 7 bucks, the rest start at 15 and go up from there to 25 as well - so slightly less or more depending on what they are selling/limited time etc. 

Housing as I said - varying prices from the very affordable freebie room and ones of nice sizes under 10 bucks, and then allllll the way up to 80 IRL money (but all also purchasable with in game credits like in SWTOR) and currently there are 55 strongholds.  SWTOR housing you can't buy on the store, but you can buy direct with CC coins of varying prices.  And theres 6. 

I quite agree TESO could cut the price of the RNG boxes down, but I don't agree that anyone is being "forced" to buy them.  The items offered are a much smaller percentage of overall items available in comparison to that percentage in SWTOR.  But of course, different strokes - so some like you will be turned off by this and some like me much prefer the more options be direct buy than only through RNG.

And something else also nice - @Sebrik.  You can browse the TESO store from the website and check it out yourself, you can't do that with SWTOR.  Never understood why.  All the other games have the store outside the game! :)

Quote
4. All their lootboxes are done during limited-time events. So by the time you've bought enough boxes to get enough of the special in-game currency to buy the item you want, the item and the event are gone from the store. This encourages people to spend large amounts of money on the game in very limited amounts of time because they know that the item they want will not be there if they just spend small amounts of money when they are able to afford it. Because there's no way to get it through trade later!

As Seb said - SWTOR lootboxes use to give out crap. I know because the TWO I bothered buying gave me crap.  One gave me yes, another RNG BOX!  ARE YOU EFFIN KIDDIN ME!  I guess I've not bought one in the new system, and I"m not going to.  They get my sub.

But getting back to the bigger point -
Everyone's lootboxes are only available for a limited time.  SWTOR sometimes keeps their RNG box up for 2 weeks, sometimes 4, sometimes 6, you never know.  TESO I've not seen put a box up for less than 6 weeks, certainly for longer.  Their lootboxes aren't the major source of anything - not of mounts (there's usually just one available through a box at a time that I've seen this year), not pets, not clothing.  You can buy far more of these direct from the store - which also has limited time direct buy items (including mounts, pets, etc.). 

And I point to my above paragraph (above the quote) as to other logic behind why "just because its on the GTN doesn't mean you can get it either" as to why its a.. parallel issue.  Not entirely apples to apples no, but not entirely apples to bannananannas either :).

When it comes to store/variety of items - this can't even come close to being said about SWTOR's RNG-box system - THE main source of almost everything involving clothing, pet, mounts, decorations, etc.  So yea they better let us sell it on the GTN!  :nuu:   Before we had the SWTOR Store there were all of maybe 10 or 20 different armor looks total in the entire leveling game for each armor type - and no adaptive. It was the *worst* (least) item variety I have ever seen in a base MMORPG game.  IN TESO the loot boxes (each version) don't make up all the options, just additional ones.

TSW store and boxes fall closer to TESO here, than SWTOR side. Lots of options in game and more options on the store than what is provided by RNG boxes - which (now anyway)are up for months at a time and only offer one or two clothing sets and maybe a single mount or pet. 

And here I do still agree - yes, the huge limitation to the TESO system IS the fact that you can't buy/trade between players and no, many items in the RNG box aren't on the store ever.   But if you're someone like me - who doesn't give two craps that I can't get those items because I have enough else to be happy with *shrugs* Its not a big deal.  I certainly don't come close to feeling "punished."

And to me - yes, I agree - ALL RNG systems are gambling (not just TESOs).  Different thread though on how I FEEL about that. =D (No its not good either)

Quote
Overall, SWTOR has a good system. You are able to trade for items you want. The RNG gets you cool stuff, which you can either keep or sell for credits to get the actual things you want. And you will never have a crate that only gives you XP buffs and consumables (which is something that's pretty common when you open a lootbox in ESO). The new crates are particularly balanced, IMO. If they reintroduced old crates to the market more regularly (perhaps as a fixture of the market in its own pane?) then I would have zero complaints about it. The gamble box is fun, if everyone is winning! And in SWTOR everyone is winning: The company gets money, and the player gets cool items and/or the ability to sell those items for credits or gift them to friends.

I would say SWTOR has only an OK system because of how heavily weighted the RNG boxes are for giving the game a variety of models.  If they would step-up their store game and add more variety and just MORE STUFF to buy (as TESO has done) direct they would still be in the win-win - just MORE in the win-win.  And more win-win in positive player vibes.  They aren't the worst store, no, but the nickle-dime stuff in game and then the store on top being heavily dependent on RNG boxes to give players - anything at all to trade/want (can you imagine if people didn't buy them in large enough quantities to make it at all GTN affordable lol) - leaves others of us with a more sour taste in our mouth and feeling "Money grabbed at".  Whereas TESO system doesn't have that same feel for some - but again - YMMV!


History Posts:  Her Backstory , Darth-Hood

Offline Karmic

  • Member
  • The Shadows Betray you, because they Serve Me.
    • View Profile
Re: So, Lootboxes
« Reply #11 on: 11/15/17, 09:13:30 PM »
0 Show voters
Well @Sebrik and others -as to the BF2 Drama - I don't really know WHAT the prices people were being asked to pay for the different famous Star Wars characters over and above the game cost. So I can't really comment on whether that particular price point for that particular item was money grabbin or just "well yea... I can see that..."

When it comes to MT or no MT.  I feel if its an ongoing playable game with online multiplayer content - to me I definitely understand the need to keep the revenue stream flowing with the MT and recoup costs back.  Honestly doesn't bother me as long as it stays fluff.

But with what I "heard" about the BF2 Drama - yea they responded by dropping the Vadar/character prices 75% but then someone told me then they dropped the earning of the funds for it by the same, effectively doing nothing at all.

I don't think its ok for that to be behind a shrouded curtain and it isn't until after you've bought in to an 80 dollar edition you find out its way more than most would expect for the XYZ cool thing, certainly if they used that XYZ thing as a touted selling point or made it seem like it would be more accessible/free or something.

Offline single player games are a different bag.

Though I will say as you list all those prices - play on PC - no extra cost for the online crap.  I looked through that whole list and was like "we.. didn't pay that..." XD

In fact one of the reasons we stay PC and don't even try to go console is the idea that I'm going to pay an extra monthly fee on top of my cable bill to play a game online at all?  :evil:  :rage: NO!


~~~~~~

And no @Sebrik - mounts are not that rare or hard to get.  You can buy them for in game cash (at least 5 or 6 that way..)or you can buy them from the store direct (about 10 options there full time and then other options on limited time specials) as well.

If you want that one mount the RNG box is dropping though, yes, the only way to get it is to gamble.


~~~~

Ok I think.. I hit most everything... XD

History Posts:  Her Backstory , Darth-Hood

Offline Sebrik

  • Member
  • I Peaked in Season 3
    • View Profile
Re: So, Lootboxes
« Reply #12 on: 11/15/17, 09:51:46 PM »
0 Show voters

Though I will say as you list all those prices - play on PC - no extra cost for the online crap.  I looked through that whole list and was like "we.. didn't pay that..."


The games I listed?  That's not for online access.  Season pass isn't online access, season pass is for DLC, often times day one DLC.

For the Battlefield games, if you want the full game at launch, along with the season pass to be able to play on the maps they release after launch, that is the price you pay.  Or you wait 9 months and pay 30-50 for all of it.

Offline Ash

  • Member
    • View Profile
Re: So, Lootboxes
« Reply #13 on: 11/16/17, 04:48:25 PM »
0 Show voters
For those of you who are just interested in the news surrounding loot boxes (especially with EA Star Wars battlefront 2), the Belgium Gambling committee has decided to review EA BF loot boxes to determine if it is, indeed, gambling. If found to be gambling, the government can fine EA for gambling without a licence, which can be in the hundreds of thousands of Euro, or just flat out ban the game in the region.
Pub side characters: Ash'ette, Shaan Lix

Imp side characters: Shaan-Lix, Jannet, Priestess Mava

Offline Karmic

  • Member
  • The Shadows Betray you, because they Serve Me.
    • View Profile
Re: So, Lootboxes
« Reply #14 on: 11/16/17, 05:08:55 PM »
0 Show voters
For those of you who are just interested in the news surrounding loot boxes (especially with EA Star Wars battlefront 2), the Belgium Gambling committee has decided to review EA BF loot boxes to determine if it is, indeed, gambling. If found to be gambling, the government can fine EA for gambling without a licence, which can be in the hundreds of thousands of Euro, or just flat out ban the game in the region.

Interesting.

Curious to see if they actually DO anything; quite a precedent if they do.

And gotcha Seb!!  Ok, I thought that was their online access.  SO it costs even more... silly consolers ;).

So you're saying the "season pass" for 30 - Day one DLC.  Is that for the One release of DLC and they pay more for other DLC.  Or is that access to whatever DLC maps come on after launch (all of them for the 30)?

Just curious.  Not that I'm going to play but just curious as to how they are charging :).

History Posts:  Her Backstory , Darth-Hood