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Author Topic: Tanking in PvP [Jugg/Guard Focus]  (Read 1407 times)

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Offline Semah

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Tanking in PvP [Jugg/Guard Focus]
« on: 01/21/13, 09:26:14 AM »
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THIS POST IS NOW OUTDATED! IT APPLIED ONLY PRE-2.0. DO NOT USE IT FOR REFERENCE!

In time, I'd like to turn this into a real resource, but for now, Aiden asked for my Jugg build, and I figured I'd use that as motivation to, you know, post the thread. I'm afraid I'm not being very organized (some other guides divide up the post like an academic paper) and maybe I'll clean it up in time, but I wanted to get some content added first.

Modified Jan 25 2013: Cooldowns added.
Modified Feb 4 2013: Updated spec, dropping some damage for rage-savings on retal. Also added another AFQ.

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BUILDS
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Here is Semah's current PvP tank build (updated 2/4/13):

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101rrubzzMZforMrhzzM.2

Anticipated Frequent Questions (AFQs):

(Q 1) "Semah, you crazy! Everyone knows serious tanks spec deep immortal or defense!"
(A 1) "12 points in Veng/Vig for unremitting/unstoppable is just too good to pass up. I'm not just talking about Huttball (where the utility is obvious) but everywhere else, too. Especially in today's smash-heavy climate, the first reaction to being leapt to is often a CC on the leaper."

(Q 2) "Semah, you crazy! Even if you only put 12 in Veng, why don't you put the rest in defense? That -4% int/ele DR is sweetsauce!"
(A 2) Cutting and pasting from a debate on the official forums (link here), here is an incomplete hacked-up comparison between veng-heavy and imm-heavy PvP tank builds:

Quote
Let's examine how much more "impossible to kill" you are with 29/12/0:

+ 5 more seconds of Enure
+ 4% internal/elemental DR
+ 15 sec off force-push
+ Hilt Strike (an extra stun)
+ Some focus savings due to 1/2 courage
+ Cheaper Riposte
+ +3% ranged/melee avoidance from Bbar

- Various dps stuff which, since we're considering pure tank only, has no bearing on this discussion
- loss of 6% strength, which has a small (very small) impact on BB size.
- 3 sec longer CD on blade storm, meaning fewer barriers vs. a veng tank
- focus cost on force sweep vs. free as veng

Looks pretty terrible so far right? Sure you get impale, a DoT, etc. but none of those matter if you're "committed to being a tank". But wait, here's the big one, the real reason people tank in 18/23 spec instead of 29/12:

- 4% overall DR to all damage types
- 15 seconds off Awe
- +15% DR when Focused Defense is active (making it even more awesome than it already is)

So re: "impossible to kill" it comes down to 4% DR to all and 15% added DR on Focused Defense <-- vs. --> 4% int/ele DR, 3% ranged/melee defense chance, and 5sec on Enure. This is not a significant difference, and if anything I feel that 18/23 pulls ahead.

I'd love to have another stun in my toolbox, but I consider AE mez cooldown reduction, improvement to a main PvP cooldown, and superior DR in general to be worth losing the stun.

(Q3) "Semah, you crazy! Why you not have blade barricade or lash out?"

I'd love to have cheaper riposte/retaliation or added melee/ranged defense. I could scavenge 2 points by dropping heavy-handed (largely a DPS talent) and 1 point in Quake, but I like having 66% chance in Quake. Veng/vig tanks get Smash for free, and while Semah's smash doesn't hit hard, the debuffs are pretty nice.

Crushing Fist 2/2 applies AE armor reduction, which is nice given how quickly people die (and thus lose debuffs) in PvP. Intimidation may be my favorite talent in the immortal tree. Lower GCD, rage/focus-free AE snare is golden in warzones.

(Q4) "Semah, you crazy! Why you spend 2 points on barrier instead of +60% crit chance to scream and execute?"

(A4) Because I prefer to maximize crunchiness. The +60% talent is amazingly good, but barrier works on all damage! If you use scream on cooldown, that's a substantial amount of absorb that nobody needs to heal, and an improvement in survival time vs. sorcs/sages. I respect people who go 16/25, but they are making a choice to hybridize.

(Q5) "Semah, you crazy! Therefore I shall ask: How does blade-barrier scale? How do I get the big bubbles?"

(A5) Barriers scale off of _bonus healing_. I know, I know, general chat says that they scale off max HP, but they do not. You can see the scaling factors on torhead. Furthermore, it scales extremely slowly. Expect to get just under 1k absorb from each scream, which ain't too shabby.

(Q6) "Semah, you crazy! You spend the point in Lash Out and the 2 points in Battle Cry, but no points in Blade Barricade. Why?"

(A6) Because rage is such a precious resource as a Jugg tank. Lemme 'splain. Enraged Defense: an amazingly good 45sec cooldown abilitity, burns rage to heal you when you're damaged. Blade Barrier gives you a shield whenever you use Force Scream (low CD for veng tanks!). Rage saving talents are good, because we get mitigation from burning rage via those two abilities.

I may end up moving that point in Lash Out somewhere else, since I don't have barricade. But better there, saving me rage, than adding 8% damage to a very weak smash. Will see. :-)

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COOLDOWNS
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Juggernaut/Guardian tanks are highly dependent on cooldowns in PvP. It's important to strike a balance between using your cooldowns too much and not using them at all. Be aware that they exist, and use them at the right times. This is a skill that you'll always be developing.

Cooldowns, irrespective of order-of-use:

- Saber Ward (100% M/R def for 2 sec, 50% M/R def for 10 more sec, -25% I/E damage for full 12sec; 3m cd)
- Enraged Defense (-15% + heal when damaged; 45s CD)
- Invincible (-40% dmg for 10sec; 3m CD)
- Endure Pain (+30% HP for 10 sec; 90sec cd; best use with WZ medpac)
- WZ adrenal (-15% dmg for 15 sec, 3m cooldown)
- Force Charge becomes a minor defensive cooldown (-20% dmg, 4sec) as well.

Notice the cooldowns. Most are 3m. But  Enraged (Focused, for jedi) Defense is an amazingly low 45sec CD in 18/23.  It gets a lot of bad press because of the aggro drop in PvE, which is meaningless in PvP! A 45sec CD 15% mitigation ability + rage dump is incredible.

Of course CC abilities are really defensive cooldowns hiding under the table:
- Grenade (anyone can use! 4sec AE mez, 3min cooldown)
- Awe (6sec AE mez, 45sec CD)
- Instant choke (3sec stun, 1m CD)

Controls are defensive cooldowns hiding in the _closet_:
- Force Push (1m cooldown)
- Chilling Scream (9 sec AE 50% snare. free and low CD for tanks)
- Charge Root (3sec)

Taunts and Interrupt are obvious. Remember to use your taunts on people attacking _others_, not people attacking you. Remember to not try and interrupt a tank shadow's telekinetic throw.

And finally, my favorite Jugg/Guard ability:
- intercede with 2pc set bonus, which moves you out of harm's way, protects a team member, and heals you 8%.

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More to follow...
« Last Edit: 04/13/13, 09:28:31 AM by Semah »

Offline Semah

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Re: Tanking in PvP [Jugg/Guard Focus]
« Reply #1 on: 01/21/13, 09:26:23 AM »
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(Reserved for expansion)

Offline Semah

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Re: Tanking in PvP [Jugg/Guard Focus]
« Reply #2 on: 01/21/13, 09:29:42 AM »
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(Reserved for still more expansion, because I crazy.)

Offline Garryson

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Re: Tanking in PvP [Jugg/Guard Focus]
« Reply #3 on: 01/21/13, 09:55:59 AM »
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Hey I don't know if you want people to leave this thread uncommented, so feel free to delete this post if ya need to, but I just gotta ask if you're going to go into gear? I'm starting to tank here and there in warzones again, and honestly I'm not sure what the heck to do with my stats. I've read that Shield/Absorb is pretty ineffective because Force/Tech powers go right through it, so to just stack Crit/Surge/Acc. So does that mean you just roll out in Vindicator's gear with a tank build? Right now I've got a hybrid set.

But your build is brilliant. I'll have to try it out. (Yay free respecs) I never gave attention to Vengeance skills with a PvP eye since my LOLSmash build hardly touches it. While I will miss that extra CC those stats are too interesting to ignore.

Great stuff! Can't wait to read the rest.

Offline Semah

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Re: Tanking in PvP [Jugg/Guard Focus]
« Reply #4 on: 01/21/13, 11:22:18 AM »
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Thanks for the encouragement! I don't mind replies, I was hoping to get a discussion going actually. The RP community has quite a few PvPers, but we tend not to talk to each other as a group. I don't know about DPS or healing, but I'd like to get us tanks talking a bit more.

I plan to cover gear, tactics, etc. There are also a few good guides and blog posts already that I need to link to. Some of them are out of date, though.

Short answer: it depends on what you want. If you're running in soresu, always equip a shield or you're passing up a good-sized bonus. Otherwise full Vindicator gear can work fine. I made the switch from vindi to tank gear (with 2pc vindi from armorings, because 2pc vindi rocks) and prefer it, _especially_ for Huttball. Full vindi will do great with the 16/25 variant of my build, picking up the +60% critchance instead of bbarrier. Long answer will appear eventually.

Offline Iaera

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Re: Tanking in PvP [Jugg/Guard Focus]
« Reply #5 on: 01/21/13, 04:09:28 PM »
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Iaera: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500RrG0ukrdbZcrRoMZz.2
(from memory, I may have forgotten where I put a couple points in Defense)

Some good points with the Vig heavy build! If I wasn't so obsessed with stacking every scrap of Defense Rating I can, it would be a tempting option. That I'm too used to my longer Enure.
retired ~ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

Offline Semah

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Re: Tanking in PvP [Jugg/Guard Focus]
« Reply #6 on: 01/25/13, 07:33:35 AM »
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Added a short list of cooldowns.

Thanks for the feedback, Iaera. I keep trying to get BBarr into my build but it just doesn't fit. Thankfully it's only 3% M/R defense, not the 6% it used to be!

I played around some with a smash+tank build a couple days ago. Whew, that was a bizarre experiment.